Eh, this comes up once in a while.

I have no problems with a min maxer as in real life we'd all minmax if we could. Also he knows the rules and doesn't need to have things told to him all the time.

I have no problems with the guy who buys everything and uses rules and gear from supplements. he helps keep the game alive by buying so much, he has to share his stuff with the rest of the group though, and people who couldn't afford every supplement can use the rules and gear too.


I really don't mind a guy trying to get every bonus he can as we'd do that in real life if our lives depended on it, it's what he does with his maxed out character. (Also, if he maxes out a combat monster, he's kind of easy to screw, just don;t have as much combat.)

My only problem is when a guy tries to take over the group, declare himself leader, force all other players to treat him like draftees treat an officer, etc.

I don't always take down a guy like that, I see what the other gamers do. If they decide to knock him down a few pegs I help, if they let him take over and I get tired of it I, as a GM, stop running one player's power trip or as a player try to 'frag" the l'il hitler type. If that doesn't work I tell them "Fuck all y'all!" because I'm not there to basically run an NPC for another player.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;595454My understanding of the term "munchkin" was forged during my early days on FidoNet and Usenet. It was heavily influenced by:

Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies, and Munchkins
The 35 Types of FRP Player
The 28 Types of Game Master

Munchkin, in general, refers to an immature player. (Hence the "munchkin" pejorative.) As a result, its use can become somewhat amorphous as it gets applied to any sort of immature behavior.

But in the late '80s and early '90s, the term seemed to most consistently be applied to players who wanted twinked out characters that could trivially dispatch opponents. This usually involved either cheating or monty haul treasures or both. (The latter being reflected in things like "I totally rolled six 18's in a row naturally on all three of my characters". The latter being reflected in things like "the six goblins were carrying a +5 holy avenger".)

That's what I always considered a Munchkin. Nowadays the term means "any PC who has better stats and more stuff than my character does".

Quote from: One Horse Town;595411A thread about the game would have been more productive.

I thought that's what it was when I clicked on the recent topics sidebar.

Quote from: Peregrin;595522I thought that's what it was when I clicked on the recent topics sidebar.

Yeah should change the title to "What is a munchkin?"  Add the a, uncapitalize the Munchkin.

Quote from: red lantern;595468Eh, this comes up once in a while.

I have no problems with a min maxer as in real life we'd all minmax if we could. Also he knows the rules and doesn't need to have things told to him all the time.

I have no problems with the guy who buys everything and uses rules and gear from supplements. he helps keep the game alive by buying so much, he has to share his stuff with the rest of the group though, and people who couldn't afford every supplement can use the rules and gear too.


I really don't mind a guy trying to get every bonus he can as we'd do that in real life if our lives depended on it, it's what he does with his maxed out character. (Also, if he maxes out a combat monster, he's kind of easy to screw, just don;t have as much combat.)

My only problem is when a guy tries to take over the group, declare himself leader, force all other players to treat him like draftees treat an officer, etc.

I don't always take down a guy like that, I see what the other gamers do. If they decide to knock him down a few pegs I help, if they let him take over and I get tired of it I, as a GM, stop running one player's power trip or as a player try to 'frag" the l'il hitler type. If that doesn't work I tell them "Fuck all y'all!" because I'm not there to basically run an NPC for another player.

Min-max is a roleplay thing though right. Because characters don;t all MIN-MAX if that was the case I woudln;t waste time writing this I would focus on being better at my job or bing a better dad or workign out in the gym or whatever.
Its fine for some of your PCs to be the laser focused professionals, its fine for some of your guys to be the guy that always has a penknife, skeleton key, roll of gaffer tape, cable ties, multi-tool, has sealed all his matches in wax etc .. but if all your guys are always like that they you have narrowed your roleplay choices a bit too far I think.

Quote from: jibbajibba;595537Min-max is a roleplay thing though right. Because characters don;t all MIN-MAX if that was the case I woudln;t waste time writing this I would focus on being better at my job or bing a better dad or workign out in the gym or whatever.
Its fine for some of your PCs to be the laser focused professionals, its fine for some of your guys to be the guy that always has a penknife, skeleton key, roll of gaffer tape, cable ties, multi-tool, has sealed all his matches in wax etc .. but if all your guys are always like that they you have narrowed your roleplay choices a bit too far I think.

One min max player we had did both, he played someone with an OCD towards "being able to defend himself" after some incidents in his childhood. He played his character fine in role playing and combat.

I think the zone between powergamer and munchkin is very fluid. Marks of munchkinism include being willing to violate the social contract of the game, bending, twisting, ignoring or violating the rules, and a petulant, whiny attitude.
I think my favourite munchkin was a guy who turned up to the first session of a 4e D&D game I played in (Swords of Punjar), and kept telling the GM, me, and everybody else that we were 'doing it wrong'. In my case I was doing it wrong because my Thief PC did not possess a trapfinding item of equipment from the Eberron Player's Guide. Explaining that this was not an Eberron game, that was not a permitted source, and the permitted sources were listed by the GM - all water off a duck's back. He went on to explain to the GM that he was 'doing it wrong', likewise. Luckily he didn't come back.
Another munchkin brought a twinked-out Cleric to a 3.5 D&D game. Again, he told everyone they were 'doing it wrong' - especially the only female player, he kept telling her what to do. When combat started - the PCs assaulting a troglodyte-occupied cathedral - he had his Cleric PC separate from all the other PCs and attack solo. He swiftly got himself killed, and the party narrowly avoided a TPK.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;595435Sorry, but this is not true.  Munchkin was around long before 3e, and most of your requirements don't apply.

Being an immature player.  I was pretty explicit that being a munchkin requires being an immature player and otherwise doesn't require any systems knowledge.  

Quote from: Sacrosanct;595435What we have here folks is people who are munchkins, but don't want to be called munchkins, come up with different, less "insulting sounding" words.  Sort of like the janitor who is sanitation engineer.

Fact is, is that you're all a bunch of munchkins.  Making up your own definitions that are contrary to decades of established precedence doesn't change that.  Nor does replacing it with a less bad sounding term, like "optimizer".  Deal with it.

:Amused

Quote from: Justin Alexander;595454My understanding of the term "munchkin" was forged during my early days on FidoNet and Usenet. It was heavily influenced by:

Real Men, Real Roleplayers, Loonies, and Munchkins
The 35 Types of FRP Player
The 28 Types of Game Master

Munchkin, in general, refers to an immature player. (Hence the "munchkin" pejorative.) As a result, its use can become somewhat amorphous as it gets applied to any sort of immature behavior.

But in the late '80s and early '90s, the term seemed to most consistently be applied to players who wanted twinked out characters that could trivially dispatch opponents. This usually involved either cheating or monty haul treasures or both. (The latter being reflected in things like "I totally rolled six 18's in a row naturally on all three of my characters". The latter being reflected in things like "the six goblins were carrying a +5 holy avenger".)

This is distinct from powergaming: Powergamers want to maximize the effectiveness of their characters, but they want to do it legitimately and they want to earn it. They wouldn't cheat to achieve their goals and they would feel cheated if the GM rewarded them disproportionately. Powergamers also generally want to be legitimately challenged, whereas munchkins want the easy victories with excessive rewards.

The gray area between powergamers and munchkins tends to be filled largely with the degree to which they're willing to take advantage of exploits in the rules. True powergamers would tend to look at obviously broken rules and say "right, well, let's fix that". Then you have a long, gray slide until you get to "Pun-Pun is book-legal, so I should totally be allowed to play him" (which gets you pretty firmly into munchkin territory).

+1.

The Wikipedia (and Fidonet) definitions are the ones that are closest to my use of the term. A lot of the definitions floating around in this thread seem more like symptoms of munchkinism, rather than the definition of "munchkin".

A munchkin is someone who wants to win at role-playing games. A good munchkin is OK with other players winning, too, as long as they don't have to look bad in comparison; this way leads towards "good" powergaming and optimizing. An average munchkin would be called a "sore loser" in any other game or in sports. Everything they do in the game is about being "The Best" and beating other people; how they are regarded by other players depends on how extreme their need to beat others is. A really bad munchkin would be called a "sore winner" in other games.

For what it's worth, Munchkin a decent enough card game; I bought it, played it once with four friends, put it back in the box.

It's fun enough, but I don't quite see how it spawned an entire line. Then again, my Beta decks of Magic cards sat in the closet for a year before some friends told me about this great new card game...

Quote from: talysman;595617The Wikipedia (and Fidonet) definitions are the ones that are closest to my use of the term. A lot of the definitions floating around in this thread seem more like symptoms of munchkinism, rather than the definition of "munchkin".

A munchkin is someone who wants to win at role-playing games. A good munchkin is OK with other players winning, too, as long as they don't have to look bad in comparison; this way leads towards "good" powergaming and optimizing. An average munchkin would be called a "sore loser" in any other game or in sports. Everything they do in the game is about being "The Best" and beating other people; how they are regarded by other players depends on how extreme their need to beat others is. A really bad munchkin would be called a "sore winner" in other games.

You win the thread, this is a great example of a bad munchkin. I've gamed with people who just had to 'beat' the other players by being in charge, etc.

I don't mind a guy wanting a certain really cool gun, piece of gear, etc. What does get me is when he has to have a better one than any other player.

What is munchkin?

Being offended at the mischaracterization of being described as one of "munchkin", "twink", "powergamer" or "minmaxer" instead of their preferred pick out of the set is usually a good sign. Also people who pretend that there's some clearly defined definition, usually a clear line between "good munchkins" they identify as and "bad munchkins".

In the end, a bad player is one who does not respect other players, who's style of play has negative effects on other players, who even goes out of his way to be a dick to other players, usually in the guise of 'playing in character" or "it's just a game".

There are different types and levels of this,  but in the end it comes down to being a good or bad player. The details are secondary at most.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;595435Fact is, is that you're all a bunch of munchkins.  Making up your own definitions that are contrary to decades of established precedence doesn't change that.  Nor does replacing it with a less bad sounding term, like "optimizer".  Deal with it.

I find the hostility some people are displaying in this thread towards the idea of someone making mechanical selections in order to optimize their character concept to be quite bizarre.

A couple of thoughts here.

First: The idea that terms like "power gamer" don't have a long history in their own right is quite counter-factual. For example, the earliest reference to "power gamer" on Usenet dates back to 1989.

Second: I quibble with deadDMwalking's attempt to draw a significant or precise distinction between "optimize", "min-max", and "power gaming". They constitute a body of related terminology that's often used interchangeably and implying that sharp distinctions can be drawn is to claim a definitional precision which is never going to exist in the real world. (I would consider "optimizer" to be basically a synonym for "power gamer". Min-maxing, on the other hand, is one technique that's used by power gamers and munchkins. As a term it seems to carry a slightly greater negativity than "optimizing", most likely because it frequently involves exploiting the rules or creating lopsided characters that function poorly in actual play.)

But what I find even more ridiculous is the implication being thrown around by people in this thread that anyone who picks up the Precise Shot feat because they're playing an archer is a munchkin. And that anyone who disputes that kind of black-and-white extremism must be a munchkin themselves.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;595435Sorry, but this is not true.  Munchkin was around long before 3e, and most of your requirements don't apply.


What we have here folks is people who are munchkins, but don't want to be called munchkins, come up with different, less "insulting sounding" words.  Sort of like the janitor who is sanitation engineer.

Fact is, is that you're all a bunch of munchkins.  Making up your own definitions that are contrary to decades of established precedence doesn't change that.  Nor does replacing it with a less bad sounding term, like "optimizer".  Deal with it.

Hoagie's!
A munchkin is nothing short of a cheating scumbag that just tries to pose as an Optimizer or Powergamer.