I recall a particularly annoying quote often bandied about a certain other rpg site, and it goes a bit like this:

"rolling for initiative is where we roll the dice to determine the order in which we will roll the dice. it is just a crazy thing to me, and terribly dull."

This is a puzzle - introducing a random element to see who gets to attack first is both crazy and dull? So all those westerns with gunfighters drawing at high noon were the height of tedium? Maybe another hobby would be more suitable then, like say gardening, I believe that's nice and predictable unless you've been picking up your supplies at Mushnik's flower shop or something. Talk about combining similar words in such a sufficiently meaningless fashion as to leap across the border of the idiotic.

Anyway I like the wheel form of initiative, where you roll once at the start then everyone gets to act based on how long it takes to say attack or cast a spell. So someone using a dagger might be able to attack three times in the length it takes another to swing a battle axe.

I qualify that by reducing the time it takes to use weapons based on skill however, so a master axeman might be just as quick as a standard knifeman. Magic can also reduce action times. Each creature involved is tracked by moving tokens around a wheel of ten or twelve spokes. Works great, and really keeps the action moving.

How do you prefer your initiative?

Quote from: The Traveller;591242How do you prefer your initiative?

Radically different.

As I said in that thread, Initiative has nothing to do with who goes first. It has everything to do with who is in command of the battlespace, who is making and executing plans.

Those with Initiative act, those without React. Those who React, will sooner or later lose.

Initiative isn't random, it's a consequence of decisions made during the combat. You choose to act aggressively and Seize the Initiative. Act passively, and your enemies will take the Initiative, and wipe you out.

That is, at least, what all my research has indicated. So, I crafted my mechanics to match.

(See also this thread, where I had a great discussion about how my Initiative system interfaces with real combat. Short answer: it held up very well.)

Quote from: The Traveller;591242How do you prefer your initiative?

I honestly don't care, as long as it's quick and easy to do and doesn't involve everyone adding a bunch of modifiers every round. As long as it's quick and easy with low or no bookkeeping, I'm happy with it.

Here's the 3 Initiative systems that have worked for me:

Highest Fixed Stat
I have been fine with fixed initiative based on DEX or DEX + INT or whatever stats, sometimes modified by talents or circumstance. It's easy, but predictable. Worked fine in Champions since you get what you pay for. Never had a problem using it in Traveller as well.

PCs vs. Monsters
This is my default option for my OD&D games. Each side rolls 1D6, ties go to the PCs. It allows each side to use team tactics and you nuke that annoying "I delay" shit that plagues D20 games. Is it realistic? Fuck no, but neither is anything else in D&D.

Better Games Model
If you have the chance, hunt down Space Gamer / Fantasy Gamer magazines from the 90s when it was owned by Better Games. They had a cool initiative system where you choose go in the Active or Reactive Phase, both had their advantages and it added to the tactical fun of the game.

That certainly is a very sad quote.

Usually I just go with "players go first" style initiative. It's fast and it gives the party that extra edge which suits the cinematic kind of games I usually run.

Marvel Super Heroes has a pretty cool system. It is basically team based initiative with the difference that the players and (secretly) the GM declare their planned moves before the initiative is rolled and then committed to stick to it even circumstances on the ground chance during the turn. That creates a fog of war sort of effect which is actually kind of cool.

What I tend to dislike is individual initiative rolled every turn, unless it's down with Savage World's deck of cards.

I don't roll for initiative. I roll for surprise. After resolving any surprise attack, it goes in modified Dex order. First round only, you can opt for triple your weapon length in place of your Dex, if you want. Spell or mental activity uses higher of Int or Dex.

On rounds other than the first, add opponent's weapon length to your Dex if your weapon is shorter. Spell level counts as weapon length.

I only use dice rolls for tie breakers, assuming timing is important; if it isn't, like if you tie with an ally attacking a different opponent, there's no need to roll. If we roll for a tie breaker and the dice tie, then the attacks are truly simultaneous.

Quote from: Soylent Green;591272What I tend to dislike is individual initiative rolled every turn, unless it's down with Savage World's deck of cards.

I agree with this as well. In games with individual initiative every turn, even if I try to stick with it, it eventually ends up being that we just keep repeating initiative.

For me, initiative is a part of the combat system and should fit with the rest of whatever system is being used.

D&D combat is abstract and not really intended to be a blow by blow recreation of the action. Attacks and damage represent the capabilities of the combatants over the course of a combat round. The round is an important fixture in the system, and therefore I prefer to determine initiative each round simply with a d6.

GURPS combat is tactical and handled second by second, so it is not surprising that the combat round is of little use here. Individual participants' capabilities determine the speed of action. Initiative rolls are only needed to break ties for matched basic speeds. It too works well for the style of combat that it supports.

There is no one size fits all initiative system that works for me.

In my opinion, determining when you get to act should be:

1) Completely separate
2) Fast
3) Distinct

By "completely separate" I mean "not part of the basic mechanic" -- like another skill roll, an attribute check or any other "typical" action.  This is not a "typical action" it is specifically a mechanical effect to produce an abstract numerical sequence.  

Alternately, "completely separate" can simply be "We'll start with the player to my left and go around the table counter-clockwise."  

The point is, it's just an abstract method of keeping the *players* in a state of order so there is a fair distribution of activity and no one is left out or gets to act too often.

By "fast" I mean "as little time as possible should be spent on this aspect of the game." If it takes more than the toss of a die by each player, it's too much.  Tossing a die I get--it randomizes things to showcase the uncertainty of a stressful situation. If I have to compare to a chart, subtract from a number, add to a number, or anything more complex, then it's way too complex for my interest to be maintained.

By "distinct" I mean "I know when combat begins and I know when it's over." Truthfully, this isn't very realistic and means surprises have to be handled outside of initiative.  I just prefer knowing "combat starts when we roll initiative (or start "round robin") and ends when the last visible combatant is down."  It's all personal preference.

In some games combat and roleplay is intermingled and in those systems, I am willing to sacrifice "distinct" for "inobtrusive" -- meaning that it just flows naturally as part of the roleplay.

Legends of the Wulin offers yet another approach to this dilemma. Initiative rolls not only decide who goes first, but you can also do certain other things at this phase of the turn, like initiating movement, evaluating your opponents and other things that are not attacks.

I think we eventually settled on individual by-round initiative back in the day.  d10 minus Dex Bonus plus weapon speed/casting time and that was the segment you performed your actions.  It was extremely helpful for determining if spells were disrupted, but sometimes having most of the party go first was just the little bit of edge we needed to turn a looming defeat into a (somewhat ragged) victory.

Quote from: 1of3;591366Legends of the Wulin offers yet another approach to this dilemma. Initiative rolls not only decide who goes first, but you can also do certain other things at this phase of the turn, like initiating movement, evaluating your opponents and other things that are not attacks.

Either i'm stupid, or that game is poorly written.

I have tried reading the initiative rules/waves and I cannot understand it at all.

The writer even posted youtube vids trying to explain it. I don't get it.

I am not stupid.

Even if the game were poorly written (I understood the rules just fine and I'm not even a native speaker), that doesn't inform whether the "who goes first" with other elements is a good or bad idea.

Static initiative systems have always worked fine for me. Champions/Hero system is a good case in point. When I'm running d20 I use a fixed 10+initiative modifiers for everyone's initiative rolls. If they have a feat which grants a re-roll, then they get the re-roll; that's only fair.

I'm still trying to decide which way is best to do static initiative for Savage Worlds (or if I even want to), because the basic stats seem fairly balanced in cost; basing initiative on one of them (Agility?) will make it a lot more cost-effective. I might try using several stats (Agility, Smarts, Pace) so that none of them are weighted too heavily.

In general, randomized initiative rules have always just annoyed the crap outta me. The poster above who mentioned "getting what you pay for" pretty much nailed it. If your character is quick, he should get the benefit of that quickness without getting screwed over by lousy dice rolls. If your character is slow, deal with it, plan accordingly, and don't count on lucky dice rolls to get the drop on everyone else.