Quote from: RPGPundit;587057I'm glad to hear it, though that was news to me (not saying it didn't happen, just don't remember seeing his praises).  But your own point is that criticism doesn't automatically harm sales, which I agree with (in some cases, such as when I've given negative reviews, there are even reported sales spikes!), so really, what harm am I doing?

I agree that no harm has been done to TBZ.

In terms of what is being said about you and Erick Wujcik, this is an irrelevant tangent to this thread which is about TBZ. FWIW I don't condone what has been said about that subject any more than I condone your baseless accusations that AndyK is a fraud.

Quote from: RPGPundit;587051There have been some games lately that tried to be some kind of ill-conceived hybrid between RPGs and storygames where they made it pretty impossible to mechanically excise the storygame elements, and they were basically a potentially good game ruined.

Do you have examples?

QuoteCan you give any examples?

The One Ring, Apocalypse World and Tenra Bansho Zero, just to name a few recent ones. They all have a solid “traditional” base with some “modern” elements added in. In a way, they are the baby child of D&D and Dogs in the Vineyard.

Contrary to Pundit though, I think this mix is actually positive and may result in as much fun as any pure traditional game out there.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;587839Do you have examples?

There were a few RPGs I've reviewed over the years that fit that bill. There were a few that were the other way too.

RPGPundit

Obviously, the usual suspects will ignore the first line of text on the game's own site...

Quote from: The Game's Own SiteTENRA BANSHO ZERO is a Japanese Storytelling Game of "Hyper-Asian Fantasy", in the author's own words.

...and tell us it's 98.3% traditional, etc, etc.

But, since Andy is involved, I was wondering if this is a Roleplaying Game or a Roleplaying 2.0 Game?

It is also possible that Storytelling Game is how you translate it from Japanese and the Japanese as we all know don't give a shit about the Forge. (I don't know if it's true or not. The first part. I am pretty sure about the second.)

Also, by Krueger´s logic all White Wolf games would be storygames.

Quote from: vytzka;588602It is also possible that Storytelling Game is how you translate it from Japanese and the Japanese as we all know don't give a shit about the Forge. (I don't know if it's true or not. The first part. I am pretty sure about the second.)

I suspect that it was hard for them to give a shit about it, five years before it existed.

I don't know, I think we should judge the game on itself, rather than whether anyone involved with it ever used the "S" word.

Quote from: silva;588605Also, by Krueger´s logic all White Wolf games would be storygames.

Actually no.  If you want to see what I think a Storygame is, there are lots of posts where I've talked about it, none of which identify Storyteller games as Storygames, because they're about as traditional as you get, despite all the arthaus pretentiousness.

To give TBZ the benefit of the doubt, I can totally see how if you are trying to emulate genre, the genre being anime movies, tv shows and comics, you might couch things in literary terms without having anything to do with actual Storygaming mechanics like shared narration, world editing and conflict resolution.  However, I doubt you could emulate those genres without narrative metagame mechanics, so this is probably going to be a NRPG.  Again, nothing wrong with it, and it's not like TBZ is trying to hide any story elements.

The Roleplaying 2.0 thing though is complete and total douchebaggery, but has nothing to do with TBZ itself, so I'll stop trainwrecking.

Quote from: silva;588605Also, by Krueger´s logic all White Wolf games would be storygames.

I don't seem to have picked up any brain damage from TBZ yet...

Quote from: CRKrueger;588732To give TBZ the benefit of the doubt, I can totally see how if you are trying to emulate genre, the genre being anime movies, tv shows and comics, you might couch things in literary terms without, having anything to do with actual Storygaming mechanics like shared narration, world editing and conflict resolution.

None of those things are in TBZ as I understand them.

QuoteHowever, I doubt you could emulate those genres without narrative metagame mechanics, so this is probably going to be a NRPG.  Again, nothing wrong with it, and it's not like TBZ is trying to hide any story elements.

Could you explain what do you call narrative metagame mechanics? Or a NRPG. I am only familiar with the Forge definition of "narrative RPG" and Tenra Bansho Zero doesn't have anything to do with it (predictably, as the whole genre was pretty much made up by Edwards from whole cloth).

Quote from: vytzka;588733Could you explain what do you call narrative metagame mechanics?

Stuff that exists outside the viewpoint of the character, decisions made by the players.  

An example of narrative metagame mechanics you find in a ton of trad games is Fate points.  The character is not choosing to defy his Fate, the character doesn't have that power.  It is the player who is saying "No, my character does not die here, this way." by expending a Fate Point.  The player, not the character, is using a "back channel" outside of the setting to influence the world.

Games with increased amounts of Narrative Metagame include FATE and its derivatives, Marvel Heroic Roleplaying, The One Ring, et al.

CRK, I think your last few posts explain why I disagree with you on what a "storygame" and a "conventional RPG" are I personally don't consider mechanics where players make decisions outside the viewpoint of the character to either be distinctive of storygames (not saying that you do either) or necessarily non-conventional RPG*.

To give an example, the fact that TBZ shifts making Karma awards to the players rather than solely the GM was given above as being indicative of storygaming. This is not the case IMO as there is no story responsibility or authority passed to the players in this mechanic. However, I agree that the players are definitely making decisions that are outside their character's viewpoint.

So, FWIW I agree that TBZ involves mechanics that see the players make decisions outside of their characters' viewpoint. This just goes to show the dangers of relying on terminology, without further explaining what one means

*I would say that its arguable that any RPG mechanic involves a player decison made outside the viewpoint of the character, but that seems like a topic for another thread.

Well it is sort of on the fence. As I said, Aiki points are gained only through roleplaying, not through things that would normally improve a character in traditional games (like killing things and obtaining treasure). Then you convert them into Kiai points that you can spend on adding dice etc. to your rolls or improving skills.

But the more strongly your character feels about something - something special for them, not some overall "story" thing, the more Kiai they will be able to get. And the more Kiai you spend, the more Karma your character amasses, and if he gets to 108 their desires overwhelm them and they turn into an Asura, a single minded demon who doesn't care about anything but the thing they were so attached to.

The only way to prevent that is for the character to move past their desires, to not get so attached to things that they can't see anything else, and to continuously examine and evolve their beliefs. That weakens the character temporarily, but reduces their Karma and allows them to move on.

So, I would say it's associated if perhaps not in the traditional way (and it does require the player to keep track of it). Kiai is the inner spirit/drive.

Although, to be fair there are some more narratively minded things in the game, like spending/receiving points to enter the stage or invite another character, or playing with the Emotion Matrix.

Hope that helps.

Quote from: CRKrueger;588595Obviously, the usual suspects will ignore the first line of text on the game's own site......and tell us it's 98.3% traditional, etc, etc.

But, since Andy is involved, I was wondering if this is a Roleplaying Game or a Roleplaying 2.0 Game?

all the WoD games are 'storytelling games' which, by the pundit's own admission, are roleplaying games as well, at least.

Quote from: vytzka;588845Although, to be fair there are some more narratively minded things in the game, like spending/receiving points to enter the stage or invite another character, or playing with the Emotion Matrix.

Hope that helps.

Hmm, so there is mechanism by which the player chooses to expend points to allow another player to "enter the stage" by which I guess means enter the interaction and get to affect stuff?  So maybe I'm in a "private scene" dealing with my character and some external metagame mechanic allows the player to bring other characters into the scene?  If that's the way it works, not for me really at all.