Quote from: estar;583208It think it possible for one referee to teach another how to run X. We know this happened before with Rob Kuntz and Gary Gygax for the Greyhawk Campaign. Note I am not saying they did anything formal.

We also know that whatever a person can teach that it can be written so another who not physically present can learn.

Hence we just haven't stumbled on an effective way of writing up a large scale dungeon in such a way to teach somebody how to run it like the original referee.

I have been saying this for years and am glad to see someone independently thinks the same way. Adventures and locales interesting enough to *buy* from another DM should be so original that it should be necessary for the writer to provide an essay on how he runs his campaign environment. Instead, unbelievable to me, almost everything I see published as delectation for the mind's eye is a lacklustre recombination of old hats as if placing the peas to the right of the chicken instead of the left created a new dish.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;583388At this point, I think we're forced to conclude that I Run With Scissors is a lying sack of shit. Here's the reality:

[...] But this is untrue: Scissors doesn't start raising the shitstorm on Autarch's forums until September 1st. Nothing is posted to Your Dungeon Is Suck until September 6th.

Sorry to throw reality on your brave!righteous!outburst, but your own time machine needs recalibration. YDIS was buzzing about the botched timetable by August 24.

http://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/keep-the-monolith-reviews-coming/

What is IRWS lying about again? Where did he attribute the August 10 update to the "shitstorm?" The August 10 update was *what set IRWS off*.

All this thread has done is show me one more vile place on the internet I didn't know existed before.




Seriously, do people really get off on being so crude and negative all the time?  It is like some sort of weird addiction?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;583398All this thread has done is show me one more vile place on the internet I didn't know existed before.




Seriously, do people really get off on being so crude and negative all the time?  It is like some sort of weird addiction?

Is that you dodging Samovar's points?

Quote from: Sacrosanct;583398All this thread has done is show me one more vile place on the internet I didn't know existed before.




Seriously, do people really get off on being so crude and negative all the time?  It is like some sort of weird addiction?

You think this is vile?

Sacrosanct I think "vile" is too strong a term for what JM is doing.

Quote from: Fiasco;583405Is that you dodging Samovar's points?

Since I'm not the one arguing with him, how am I dodging his points?


I'm simply stating that this thread has shown me yet another site I was previously unaware of that is nothing but anger, vitriol, and bonus points if you're crude and nasty.  What's wrong with some people, to be like that all the freaking time?

No product on time --> James refunds the money already.

That's what a proper businessman does.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;583388At this point, I think we're forced to conclude that I Run With Scissors is a lying sack of shit.

Oh really? Are you sure about this? Are you sure you want to continue down this path?

No.

Ok. Here we go.

QuoteHere's the reality:

Where is yours?

QuoteJune 4th -- An update is posted explaining that the project is going to be delayed. This is the point where we know things are "up a creek", two and a half months before Scissors claims it happened.

From Jim's only, at the time, mentioning of the project:

Quote from: Jim the ScamThings have more or less settled down now. Though all three of my family members are no longer in any immediate danger for their health, it's slowed the pace of my writing, as I said. This will also slow the final publication of Dwimmermount. I expect the PDF will be available in the fall, though it's still possible it may be sooner (I am a fast writer when not distracted by personal matters). The hardback books and other physical rewards should be in your hands by in the winter of 2012, due to the additional time required for printing and shipping.

Ok, very reasonable. I was not angry. Hell, I totally understand if you are dealing with family issues, that things might be changing.

QuoteJuly 6th -- Backers got an update on where James was at in the writing process. (Along with access to the current drafts.)

Well this is not quite being honest.

Let's shift this to Update #18 for a second. Which is dated June 26.

Quote from: Update #18James has provided us with a draft of level 3A, the House of Portals. It's available for download at the Autarch site if you're registered there as a Dwimmermount backer, or from the password-protected pages that were provided in previous backers-only updates.



Folks who pledged for backer rewards that included the Adventurer Conqueror King System core rules have been sent a link for downloading those in PDF. The ACKS Player's Companion is nearing completion; Autarch has sent the latest draft of its rules to backers who will be getting that as one of their bonus rewards. Goblinoid Games will also be sending PDFs of their Labyrinth Lord and Advanced Edition Companion rules for backers getting those rewards. Print copies of these rewards will be sent along with the Dwimmermount books. Email support@autarch.co if you didn't get a supplementary rule download that you pledged for.

In the backer reward survey, many backers let us know that they wanted rewards that weren't covered by their pledge amount. Because it's not possible to take money through Kickstarter after the campaign ends, these have to be handled as pre-orders or retail orders. They'll be handled in three different ways:

For Dwimmermount items - the dungeon itself (in PDF or print, and in ACKS or LL versions), the map booklet, the mega-dungeon tracker, and the wilderness mat - Grognardia Games will be handling the pre-orders. We expect that this will happen around the time that the layout is complete, so that the book's size and weight can be known exactly.

For Autarch items, you can order the Adventurer Conqueror King System rules and pre-order the Player's Companion expansion from Game Salute at this link.
For Goblinoid Games items, you can order the PDFs of the Labyrinth Lord core rules and the Advanced Edition Companion through DriveThruRPG via these links. Dan will provide more information about pre-ordering the special print edition closer to the time that it'd be shipping with Dwimmermount.

Now let's move to the July 6 update which is apprently the evidence that I am lying.

Quote from: Update #19We have two new drafts from James to share - levels 2B, the Reliquary, and 3B, the Reservoir. In fact we've had 'em for a little while now, but wanted to make sure we'd ironed out the problems with the download that were cropping up last time. All should now be good to go - but if you have any problems, don't hesitate to email support@autarch.co.

Since this is a backer-only update, I can get more into detail about the two ways you can choose from to download the new drafts:

1) Fill out the form at http://www.autarch.co/path-of-mavors/, using your Kickstarter handle and the password: Thuli4n. Within a few minutes, you'll be sent an email with download links for all the Dwimmermount drafts to date. Click the name of the level you want to download, or right-click and "save as" to put it in a specific location.

2) Visit the main download page at http://www.autarch.co/downloads. If you are logged into an Autarch account that has been set for Dwimmermount access, you'll see all the Dwimmermount files available for download. If you've just registered for an Autarch account, it can take up to a day or so for us to confirm that you are a Kickstarter backer - we have to do this step manually because KS is a closed system. When registering for an account, be sure to enter your Kickstarter username accurately, as this is what allows us to confirm that you should have access.

Here's hoping you're able to enjoy these two new levels without further ado! As always, comment or email if you need help.

Unless I am missing something, there is nothing there about where he is, or (and this is key) that the dates have shifted. From all apperances everything thing is still how it was a month ago.

Yup a month ago.

How much has changed within that month? How was the building a shared experience?

QuoteAugust 10th -- Tavis posts an update laying out a new plan of action, including new deadlines that they're aiming to hit.

Ok, you are not being honest. Your evidence -- as you so despertly want to cling too -- does not prove your point. In fact it still carries on the myth that everything is all systems go.

Quote from: Update #20Being a Kickstarter backer offers a variety of satisfactions. There's the excitement of taking part in the initial campaign and helping meet its funding target and bonus goals. There's watching a project take shape and knowing that together, your contributions made it possible. Finally, there's receiving the rewards that you pledged for.

As James discussed in update #17, the consequences of his father's illness have delayed this sequence. In that update we revised the expected date for delivery of Dwimmermount in PDF to the fall, which means the hardback books and other physical rewards are predicted to reach you in the winter after printing & shipping. We still plan to meet that estimate, but if you've been enjoying watching the project take shape you know the drafts of the dungeon levels aren't arriving at the rate James had hoped would lead to a complete draft by the end of July.

We're committed to fulfilling all the satisfactions of being a Kickstarter backer that I listed above, but there's one more I can offer in the meantime: a backstage pass from which you can get a perspective on what goes into creating a finished RPG project. Up to this point, we've been doing backer updates when there's new Dwimmermount content to share with you. Unfortunately, that means you're hearing from us least at the times when nothing visible is happening and you're likely to have the most questions about the project's progress.

In order to increase our transparency and accountability, I'm going to be posting backer updates each week from now until the last Dwimmermount reward ships. (If you're reading this update in your inbox and that sounds like more emails than you want to receive, just visit the Kickstarter site, choose "Me" from the upper right menu, then Edit Settings > Notifications. Unchecking the "Notify me by email when: Projects I'm backing post new updates" box will allow you to choose whether each individual project you've backed will email you updates; either way you can still access them through the project page).

In each week's update, I'll present the new interim project deadlines that James and I agreed on during our Wednesday phone call, and either share with you the progress that has been made on last week's deadlines, or take the time to discuss the holdup and put it in context from a backstage perspective. Here's what the goals are for this week:

Next week, 8/15: Post the complete scans of the original Dwimmermount dungeon notes (excepting the maps for levels 5 and below, which Tim Hartin is using for the cartography of those levels).
I prioritized this as the first deadline because sharing these was the first Kickstarter bonus goal, but also because it serves as a hedge against tragedy. We're fully committed to delivering Dwimmermount as originally promised; the phrase "over my dead body" comes to mind when contemplating the idea that this will join the list of Great RPG Projects That Never Were. However, if anything good can come out of something as sad as the unexpected crises with James' family's health, it's the reminder that we are all mortal. That Gygax died before he could finish Castle Zagyg and present his vision of the original Greyhawk dungeon is a tragedy that no one could prevent. That his original dungeon notes aren't available for other fans to use as the springboard for their own inspirations could have been avoided, and that's part of our intent here.



We're currently ahead of schedule on this goal. Last week's internal deadline was to have one new scan available for today's update, but James has provided two. You can download the entirety of the Level 2A and 2B notes at this link; the image above is a section I found particularly interesting because of the evidence of later revision. These scans will soon be available at the Autarch download area and the password-protected page, but that's a more involved process. Since the bonus goal will ultimately be to make these notes public through PlaGMaDA and the UT archive, I posted the PDFs of Level 2A and 2B for now at this non-secure Google site. We plan for all the original notes to be downloadable there next week.

Two weeks from now, 8/22: Have a draft of Level 4 available for backers to download.
During our last phone call James originally set an earlier planned delivery date for this draft. I argued for giving it more time because I think it's important to set expectations that can reasonably be met. In Update 17, James wrote that "I am a fast writer when not distracted by personal matters." Given his family health issues, it's understandable that this is not currently the case. Nevertheless, my feeling is that that confidence in the project has suffered because James's estimates of when things will be ready are still based on his previous movement rate, when he was happily less encumbered.

By the standards of a Kickstarter project that exceeds its funding target, or of the RPG field in which release dates are notoriously unreliable, the Dwimmermount delays are far from unusual. Nevertheless, any gap between an announced deadline and its actual delivery is relatively distressing whether or not it's remarkable in an absolute sense. We're working to set up interim deadlines to establish the rate at which progress can be made despite James' family tragedies so that we can better predict when we'll be able to fulfill our promises to you. Until then I'll be sharing progress towards these goals in future updates, with the hope that you'll appreciate the view from backstage.

See you next week (with replies to comments in the meantime),

I quote the whole thing so you cannot insinuate I am lying.

No where in this evidence has the goal post been move yet. Everything has been proceeding at a normal pace.

Quote from: According to Scissors, the only reason the August 10th post exists is because the shitstorm had been raised. But this is untrue: Scissors doesn't start raising the shitstorm on Autarch's forums until September 1st. Nothing is posted to Your Dungeon Is Suck until September 6th.

Ok bullshit.

Let me be very clear, bullshit.

The goal posts move on 8/17. In the comments to that update, one of the backers post:

QuoteRichard Barton on August 20

I have to say that I am more than a little bit alarmed by these updates. It appears to me that hardly any of Dwimmermount was written, nay, even *conceived*, before the Kickstarter went live. And that speaks to issues beyond the entirely reasonable problems with JM's family's health. The skeletal keys from JM's notes also do not inspire confidence that he will be able to produce a viable product in anything like the time frame suggested by Kickstarter. I have spoken to another subscriber and he used the words "Bait and Switch". I am starting to wonder if that isn't pretty accurate.

What? How can this be? I am a lying "sack of shit" according to you. I have no idea who this backer is, but here is the first backer who expressed something other than sunshine and lollipops. Mind you this is still a backer only update (more of this in a bit).

So what does hapless leader Tavis say?

QuoteRichard, I appreciate your concerns; thanks for the chance to address them. Kickstarter can be used to do a lot of different things. One of them is to take a manuscript that has already been written and fund just the steps that go into publishing it, like illustration, layout, and printing. At Autarch we haven't taken that approach with our in-house projects because we've found that doing design and development on a project after its Kickstarter launches allows it to be shaped by feedback and contributions from backers. Our experience with ACKS and the Player's Companion, and having been patrons on Open Design projects which pioneered this approach, suggested that supporters enjoy being involved in this process and that a product that isn't finalized before fans get involved winds up being better than it would have been without their input during formative stages. So we didn't require that James show us a complete draft when we started talking about helping him crowdfund Dwimmermount. Our confidence was based on the fleshed-out draft and polished cartography for the first level, James' track record as a RPG professional, and - most importantly - the session summaries from Grognardia showing that the dungeon had seen extensive use in actual play. Playtesting is one of the most time-intensive aspects of a RPG project, so much so that many if not most development efforts skip it altogether. As a fan and having been a freelancer I have no doubt that I'd rather see gaming products that originated at the table, coming alive in the minds of all involved and making a more vivid and player-focused impression in the designer's mind, rather than those that exist first and foremost as ready-to-print chunks of text.

When putting together the Kickstarter project page, I emphasized the opportunity to watch Dwimmermount take shape. I meant this to signal that the Kickstarter funds would be used to support James' time and effort in the ongoing work to convert notes and memory into a form usable by other gamemasters, not just the expenses of publication. From your comment I see that I should have been more explicit about this. It's a lesson learned for next time, and I regret that I can't do more than apologize for now.

I do think that a problem with the project from the start was an over-ambitious release date. We accepted James' assurance that he could turn notes into text at a rate that would meet that schedule, and under normal circumstances that might have been true. However project planning needs to take into account the possibility of the unexpected, and I wish we had allowed for more of a hedge against things going wrong. Here in addition to my apologies I can offer the guarantee that I'm actively working to establish and maintain a more realistic schedule for completion.

Good PR and this is where things started to come to light.

On August 24 I posted at YDIS the following:

QuoteI run with scissors PERMALINK
August 24, 2012 8:00 pm
Anyone paying attention to the Dwimmermount growing disgruntlement? Seems like Grogturd really is not doing any work. Grogturd uses “sick family” as an excuse so many times I think he’s out of family. Still what do you expect from someone who cannot even support the mind numbing Thousnd Suns?

Source: http://yourdungeonissuck.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/keep-the-monolith-reviews-coming/#comment-3934

I posted this after getting back from vacation, and upon reading the 8/20 comment.

Now I am not as smart as you, so maybe my math is wrong. But 8/24 happens before 9/1 does it not?

QuoteSo unless I Poked My Brains Out With Scissors is accusing Tavis of having a time machine, he's full of shit.

Well I think I have shown who is full of shit here.

QuoteBut I think it more likely that Scissors is just a lying sack of shit and a troll.

Really? I love your evidence and the way your back your assinine arguments up.

Again, you are wrong. I was talking about this as of 8/24 at YDIS. I only took it to Autrich starting on 9/1 when the goal posts and the spins begun. In that time the goals posts have moved from a PDF in June 2012, and a book August 2012. To PDF in the "fall" (no time was given), and the book in Winter 2012 (no date given.

However, it has since be revealed:

QuoteEdward Hamilton on September 9
Does the statement "If editing, development, and layout on the earlier chapters can proceed in parallel with the drafting of the later ones, the PDF might still reach you in the fall of 2013. Let’s call this the optimistic projection" contain an error?
It sounds more like "fall of 2013" should be the pessimistic scenario, not the optimistic one, based on the explanation that follows. Hopefully that's a typo, and it should read "spring of 2013", or maybe "fall of 2012"!

To which the ever so transparent Tavis responded:

QuoteCreator Autarch on September 9
Thanks for all the comments. Sometimes your tour bus breaks down and the opening act cancels and your guitar is broken. It's then good to hear "hey your roadie is OD'ing in the bathroom" because you want to stay on top of what's going wrong; it's also good to be reminded that at the end of the day, playing rock & roll is what you wanted to do when you grew up.

@Joe, the post-weekly update rate of progress works out to 3,000 words per week. A projection based on that would be reasonable, and would predict that the manuscript would be done on 1/27/13, so that the PDF would arrive in the winter of 2013 and the books and physical rewards would arrive in the early spring.

@Edward, yes the optimistic projection is fall of 2013! Sorry about that.

Ok, so we have gone from June 2012 PDF delivery to now to Winter 2013. But wait a minute did not James have this almost done in October?

My Feeble Skills

Progress

Getting There

Table of Contents

The Goblinoids of Dwimmermount

Thinkin’ ‘bout Dwimmermount

The Clerics of Dwimmermount

So if all this is was nearly done in October 2011, why is it going to take close to two years to see anything?

Yes, you are right, I am full of shit.

IRWS

Quote from: Sacrosanct;583443Since I'm not the one arguing with him, how am I dodging his points?


I'm simply stating that this thread has shown me yet another site I was previously unaware of that is nothing but anger, vitriol, and bonus points if you're crude and nasty.  What's wrong with some people, to be like that all the freaking time?

How hard is it to get around on that high horse of yours?

Seriously, even when I tone down the vitriol, you still have sand in your vagina. Why not address the real question, that Dwimmermount is all about one thing, giving Jim a payout, and nothing more.

IRWS

Quote from: 1989;583448No product on time --> James refunds the money already.

That's what a proper businessman does.

Sadly as has been proven time and time again, most in this hobby who think they are business men, are in actuality, play actors.

IRWS

Quote from: I run with scissors;583453How hard is it to get around on that high horse of yours?

Seriously, even when I tone down the vitriol, you still have sand in your vagina. Why not address the real question, that Dwimmermount is all about one thing, giving Jim a payout, and nothing more.

IRWS

If you could get past your own issues, you'd be able to tell my last couple of comments were directed at the posting style at YDIS, not your last few posts here.  And sorry kid, but doing nothing all day but expressing your vitriol because someone designed a game differently than your personal preferences, and using words such as "cock, dick, cunt" as often as possible shows that a whole lot of folks there have some issues.  You're talking about RPGs, not Nazis for Christ's sake.

That was my point, and it's no high horse.  I don't know how many people have to keep telling you this before you get a clue.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;583457If you could get past your own issues, you'd be able to tell my last couple of comments were directed at the posting style at YDIS, not your last few posts here.  And sorry kid, but doing nothing all day but expressing your vitriol because someone designed a game differently than your personal preferences, and using words such as "cock, dick, cunt" as often as possible shows that a whole lot of folks there have some issues.  You're talking about RPGs, not Nazis for Christ's sake.

That was my point, and it's no high horse.  I don't know how many people have to keep telling you this before you get a clue.

I have never used the words "cock" "dick" or "cunt."

YDIS is a place that exists becasue it points out the hypocrisy of the OSR movement. How is what they do any different than Pundit calling everyone Swine? That's right that is ok because Swine are people who play "story games."

I can care less what people play. Really, I do not give a shit.

What I do not like is seeing people taken advantage off, and the dirty dealing of this hobby.

Case in point: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/624137/the-assholes-have-won-goodbye-bgg

Still you are free to think what you want. I am still amazed you would rather be angry at "vile" posters who point out the emperor wears no clothes, than scam artists who take your money, and bully publishers.

IRWS

Quote from: I run with scissors;583461I have never used the words "cock" "dick" or "cunt."

YDIS is a place that exists becasue it points out the hypocrisy of the OSR movement. How is what they do any different than Pundit calling everyone Swine? That's right that is ok because Swine are people who play "story games."

IRWS

Because, as people keep pointing out to you, when pundit bitches about swine, he (or anyone who responds in those threads) doesn't feel the need to make every other post filled with shitfuck cockface suck dick cunt.

From the links provided, YDIS sounds like a bunch of 12 year olds who just discovered dirty words.  The fact that you're bitching about a game and pundit bitching about a game is less important then how you're bitching about a game.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this for you.  Hell, Mistwell even used bolded and large size text.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;583463Because, as people keep pointing out to you, when pundit bitches about swine, he (or anyone who responds in those threads) doesn't feel the need to make every other post filled with shitfuck cockface suck dick cunt.

From the links provided, YDIS sounds like a bunch of 12 year olds who just discovered dirty words.  The fact that you're bitching about a game and pundit bitching about a game is less important then how you're bitching about a game.

I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this for you.  Hell, Mistwell even used bolded and large size text.

Whatever. You are talking in circles, and you refuse to answer any questions. It's ok, you can ignore the bullies and scam artists.

I just find it funny that you'd rather complain about how I choose to complain, then address publishers who drive people off a board, and someone who has taken money and will never be held accountable.

As for making things clear for me, there is no need to. I understand what you are saying, I am just sadden that you and others of your ilk rather be angry at the messenger than the message.

IRWS