Quote from: Benoist;583198My God. Do you have any idea how stubbornly ignorant and entitled (yes, entitled: "I don't know what the fuck I am talking about but whatever! My opinion is just as good by virtue of being an opinion!") you sound right now?

If this is affecting you physically, could you fire up the webcam there?

Yes, I get it, you like pizza. I'm just saying, read it, that the term has negative connotations which are jarring for me personally. I'm not saying you're wrong to enjoy a spot of dungeon crawling having seen one of your dungeon maps, and been duly impressed. That particular comment was in reponse to LV and I thought your own by way of continuing the conversation.

Quote from: The Traveller;583200If this is affecting you physically, could you fire up the webcam there?

LOL we're not there yet.

Quote from: The Traveller;583200Yes, I get it, you like pizza. I'm just saying, read it, that the term has negative connotations which are jarring for me personally. I'm not saying you're wrong to enjoy a spot of dungeon crawling having seen one of your dungeon maps, and been duly impressed. That particular comment was in reponse to LV and I thought your own by way of continuing the conversation.

OK. It does puzzle me that the 'dungeon' would be reminding you of S&M instead of what they've been in the context of RPG gaming since its inception, though, especially considering we're on a gaming forum here. It doesn't bother me at all, the same way it wouldn't bother a medievalist calling the central tower of the castle's high court a 'dungeon'. I honestly don't even see the point of bringing it up, besides talking about the likes of BADD, Jack Chick and Pat Pulling, i.e. people we really shouldn't give a shit about in the first place.

If the intent is to start talking about how 'dungeon' is a bad word we shouldn't be using, we might as well excise devils and demons from AD&D, switch the feel of the game to ren fairs and fairies and ... wait. That's been tried somewhere before, hasn't it?

Quote from: Benoist;583205OK. It does puzzle me that the 'dungeon' would be reminding you instantly of S&M instead of what they've been in the context of RPG gaming since its inception, though. It doesn't bother me at all, the same way it wouldn't bother a medievalist calling the central tower of the castle's high court a 'dungeon'.

Well if you invite someone round for an enjoyable dungeon crawl and they show up clad in a black rubber catsuit casually sporting a stiff seven foot leather paddle over their shoulder and a bucket of hot oil in the other hand, don't say you weren't warned.

I wasn't really involved with RPGing for about ten (plus) years, so I don't have the inbuilt associations I guess.

Quote from: Benoist;583205If the intent is to start talking about how 'dungeon' is a bad word we shouldn't be using, we might as well excise devils and demons from AD&D, switch the feel of the game to ren fairs and fairies and ... wait. That's been tried somewhere, hasn't it?

Devils and demons are devils and demons though, they aren't a code word for anything that fights back. I'm not arguing with you here, just pondering the lineage of the word at this stage, which has been fairly adequately outlined.

Quote from: The Traveller;582700Moria's actually a good example of what I'm talking about. It didn't exist as a place to explore and plunder, it was the route you took when a panopticon-guided army of mutant psychopaths on steroids armed with sharp metal infection delivery systems was waiting for you on the alternate road.

You're missing the forest for the trees here: Moria is a great literary example of a megadungeon specifically because it is a blank slate upon which many goals can be written. For the Fellowship it's a highway. For Balin it's a seat of power. Gandalf went to Moria years earlier in his search for Thrain. Aragorn had been there previously, as well, for reasons which are not specified.

Arguing over whether Balin's mission is most accurately described by the word "expedition", "colonization", or "invasion" is irrelevant.

Quote from: The Traveller;583209Well if you invite someone round for an enjoyable dungeon crawl and they show up clad in a black rubber catsuit casually sporting a stiff seven foot leather paddle over their shoulder and a bucket of hot oil in the other hand, don't say you weren't warned.

This, OTOH, is simply idiocy of the highest order. Whether you're talking RPGs or pop culture, the term "dungeon" is best known today for its D&D associations. Then there's the historical dungeon as prison. Then, somewhere below that, is the association with a sexual fetish. Do a Google search. Educate yourself.

Context is often important to meaning.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;583211This, OTOH, is simply idiocy of the highest order.

Serious Business, this internet.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;583211Whether you're talking RPGs or pop culture, the term "dungeon" is best known today for its D&D associations.

I wouldn't agree with this. You might be surprised how many people have heard of dungeons but not dungeons and dragons. Or who have heard of D&D but don't know the first thing about it. Or are just not going to associate it with the word first. And if they do, how many of those are going to think of "underground prison" regardless. I get the feeling you might have an inflated impression of the influence D&D has on popular culture these days.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;583211Then, somewhere below that, is the association with a sexual fetish.

No, that's it, life of the party of the year award goes to Justin Alexander. Hands down. I know its only September but we can close the voting.

Quote from: Benoist;583198Let's try this one more time. Somehow, when you think of pizza, the first and only thing that comes to mind is the frozen stuff, and when someone tries to tell you that is not representative of all a pizza can be, you basically resort to the notion that we're making shit up and agree we're like Ron Edwards and all that (Thanks, Daniel, fuck you too).

My God. Do you have any idea how stubbornly ignorant and entitled (yes, entitled: "I don't know what the fuck I am talking about but whatever! My opinion is just as good by virtue of being an opinion!") you sound right now?

You think?  a few people read a statement written by the esteemed Traveller, make the mistake of interpreting it as written, take the time to break the damn thing down for him, and then says he doesn't want to take the time to explain himself in his own thread?

Not that this site is of consequence enough to rile a soul, but a willful conflation of terminology and a tendency to quit every field once challenged doesn't really make up high-quality thread.

Hey, Justin, not that it would fit into the pattern, but you know you can check what search terms starting with dungeon are used in Google the most to get a handle on the popular use of the term.  A quick analytics is easy.
https://adwords.google.com/o/Targeting/Explorer?__c=1000000000&__u=1000000000&ideaRequestType=KEYWORD_IDEAS

Quote from: LordVreeg;583227Not that this site is of consequence enough to rile a soul

Could have fooled me.

Quote from: LordVreeg;583227Hey, Justin, not that it would fit into the pattern, but you know you can check what search terms starting with dungeon are used in Google the most to get a handle on the popular use of the term.  A quick analytics is easy.
https://adwords.google.com/o/Targeting/Explorer?__c=1000000000&__u=1000000000&ideaRequestType=KEYWORD_IDEAS

Just to mention in passing, you're supporting the guy who seemed to seriously believe I was postulating a sound surprise spanking for Ben by a stiletto heeled domination expert. Better idea, run down the street and take a straw poll of people asking them the first word that springs to mind when they hear "dungeon".

Just remember to turn on the webcam first eh.

Quote from: The Traveller;583234Just to mention in passing, you're supporting the guy who seemed to seriously believe I was postulating a sound surprise spanking for Ben by a stiletto heeled domination expert. Better idea, run down the street and take a straw poll of people asking them the first word that springs to mind when they hear "dungeon".

Just remember to turn on the webcam first eh.

Somehow, I think I get it.  
I get the idea, and the difference, as well.

Not only does the word 'dungeon' not necessarily mean 'underground prison' in this context, but it really was quite by coincidence that Gygax and Arneson started using that word in the first place.  Hanging up on whether S&M is more or less popular than D&D is an odd choice.

Words frequently have multiple meanings, and even multiple pronunciations, and I'm not convinced that the complainants are genuinely struggling with this concept.

Ham-handed example -
I'm confident that, being on some form of broadband, you are aware of the word 'router'.  Base word, 'route', sounds like 'r-ow-t'.  Unless you're talking about a 'route', as in a highway, such as 'route 66' (or at Sonic 'route 44') - pronounced like 'root'.  Again, same base word, and when you analyze it just a tiny bit, same base meaning as well.  Yet you'll never, ever, ever hear anyone complaining about his internet 'rooter'.  Why?

Context.

Quote from: mcbobbo;583250Context.

Even better, take the sentence, "Want to play in my dungeon?"  Say it in your FLGS.  Say it in a swingers' club.  Say it as a 14th century monarch to a poacher.  Context is important.

The whole word meaning/language argument comes off as stupid and trollish, to me.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;583253The whole word meaning/language argument comes off as stupid and trollish, to me.

Well, I've already clarified that earlier.

Although if this had been a troll thread, hypothetically, it would have been an epic success.

Quote from: Benoist;583198(Thanks, Daniel, fuck you too).

If I take a pizza, and then I fold it in half and quickly fry it in oil, do I still have a pizza?

In archaeology, there's a tradition where all dig sites of a particular culture are named after the very first dig site of that culture (i.e. a Catal Hoyuk-style site).  This causes all manner of problems when, as is frequently the case, the first dig site is not at all representative of the overall culture.  Imagine if the very first thing you excavated five thousand years from now was the Lincoln Memorial at the National Mall; from that point forward, all dig sites - strip malls, residential suburbs, ruined skyscrapers - would be referred to as "seated giant" sites, or some such.

That's what's going on here.  A "dungeon" is simply one way of implementing a graph-based interactive environment, but because it was the first such implementation, every graph-based interactive environment is called a "dungeon" whether it's anything that actually looks like a dungeon.

So fuck you right back, you fat greasy frog; if you spent less time looking for things to trip your butthurt mangina triggers, you might be able to contribute to the conversation instead of whining and insulting people.

You know how I know you're a pretentious bastard, The Traveller?

You act like one, and your avatar matches how you act

This whole thread reads like you're holding your nose up at what you perceive to be badwrongfun, and then coaching your words to avoid a quote that says that despite the theme being obvious.

Quote from: daniel_ream;583262If I take a pizza, and then I fold it in half and quickly fry it in oil, do I still have a pizza?

In archaeology, there's a tradition where all dig sites of a particular culture are named after the very first dig site of that culture (i.e. a Catal Hoyuk-style site).  This causes all manner of problems when, as is frequently the case, the first dig site is not at all representative of the overall culture.  Imagine if the very first thing you excavated five thousand years from now was the Lincoln Memorial at the National Mall; from that point forward, all dig sites - strip malls, residential suburbs, ruined skyscrapers - would be referred to as "seated giant" sites, or some such.

That's what's going on here.  A "dungeon" is simply one way of implementing a graph-based interactive environment, but because it was the first such implementation, every graph-based interactive environment is called a "dungeon" whether it's anything that actually looks like a dungeon.

So fuck you right back, you fat greasy frog; if you spent less time looking for things to trip your butthurt mangina triggers, you might be able to contribute to the conversation instead of whining and insulting people.

The dungeon in the context of this hobby here we are talking about has meant an exploration site from the inception of the D&D game. Now the OD&D rules meant it as an "Underworld" setting, as opposed to the Wilderness which was organized and played using hex map (Outdoor Survival board or other) and adapted protocols, but it's been extrapolated to mean "ruins", "castles" and all sorts of other exploration sites since at least Tegel Manor in 1977. Technically, I think we could go back to the original levels of Castle Greyhawk based on Alice in Wonderland and King Kong and the like which, later, would spawn EX1 and EX2, but whatever.



So you can keep yapping all you want about whatever has fuck all to do with the conversation (You know we are talking about D&D right?), try to obfuscate the exchange by making appeals to the stupid amongst us, drown us under a crapton of irrelevant pedantic bullshit and act all mightier-than-thou, but the fact of the matter remains, as far as D&D dungeons are concerned, you do not know what the fuck you are talking about. So... fuck you more, princess!