Quote from: kythri;583040After how long?  (and, only after the shitstorm touched down.)

5 days. And 9 days before that.

Starting August 10th, backers of the Kickstarter have been receiving roughly weekly updates regarding the status of the project. It is, in fact, the content of these weekly updates which drove I Run With Scissors into frothing, irrational madness.

Irrational because I Run With Scissors was convinced that the "internal schedule" in the August 31st update represented their original timeline when, in fact, it represented their new timeline for getting the project back on track. This was the entire basis for his anger: That the project now has deadlines which are later than the original deadline, which "proves" that they never intended to deliver on time.

So, no, these updates did not start arriving "only after the shitstorm touched down". Ironically, it was because Autarch made an effort to communicate indepth about what the problems were and how they were fixing them step-by-step that the Scissors created his nonsensical shitstorm.

Quote from: Benoist;583049There clearly was some over-hype going on. When you sell your dungeon as, paraphrasing, the 'legendary' Dwimmermount, the great OSR work, pinacle of what the 'movement' can produce, the thing 'everyone has been waiting for', this gives people peripherically reading the blog the impression that the dungeon has been run for a while and benefited from years of organic campaign building and great general acclaim over those years of existence. It just was not the case. It's not a cause per se, but it participates to some funders going "huh?" now, certainly.

That's kind of what I thought. It almost seemed to me that he had been running Dwimmermount, or it's progenitor, for years.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;583037To answer those, in order: No and no.

Dwimmermount was created in 2009. His notes consist of things like "3. mm scroll" and "8. Graffiti - Seek not the gods!".

Nor, it should be noted, were these things secret. I was a little surprised by just how minimal the key was; but James has talked about super-minimal dungeon keys on Grognardia repeatedly.

As an aside, I talked about this on my blog.

http://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2010/08/minimal-dungeons.html

I labeled the concept as the minimal dungeon.

The basic gist is that nobody who ran a dungeon of any size wrote everything out. Instead they wrote only a handful do special areas in detail and the rest were shorthand notes to jog one's memory as to what was in the area. That in reality that Arneson and Gygax ad-libbed much of the details in accordance with their style.

That the reason we see so little mega dungeons published is that it takes a ton of work to take what are menomic notes and write them up as tournament style dungeon.

I have a theory, i.e. I haven't tried to write this up, that if you DON'T use the tournament style and develop an alternative that you can present the mega dungeon in a compact form.

I do not know what the format is but I am sure it involves two things. First the writing would TEACH you how to run the mega dungeon, and that it will involve teaching the referee how to ab-lib the locales for themselves.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;583037Dwimmermount was created in 2009. His notes consist of things like "3. mm scroll" and "8. Graffiti - Seek not the gods!".

Nor, it should be noted, were these things secret. I was a little surprised by just how minimal the key was; but James has talked about super-minimal dungeon keys on Grognardia repeatedly.

Most of the dungeons I created in the 1970s were keyed much like that. A few key rooms on each level were a bit more detailed, but not many. I'm using one of those dungeons in my Microlite74 Wilderlands campaign now. I understand people want more if they are going to pay for it, but I really don't want as much detail as many published adventures seem to provide.

Quote from: RandallS;583120Most of the dungeons I created in the 1970s were keyed much like that. A few key rooms on each level were a bit more detailed, but not many. I'm using one of those dungeons in my Microlite74 Wilderlands campaign now. I understand people want more if they are going to pay for it, but I really don't want as much detail as many published adventures seem to provide.

I much prefer the lightly detailed dungeons to the complexly plotted adventure path. Random ideas while walking home combined with player's plans and paranoia will fill in all the rest. And I don't have to worry about some ad-lib idea "breaking" the module 5 sessions from now.

Quote from: RandallS;583120Most of the dungeons I created in the 1970s were keyed much like that. A few key rooms on each level were a bit more detailed, but not many...I understand people want more if they are going to pay for it, but I really don't want as much detail as many published adventures seem to provide.

This is the way I key dungeons, too. I assign most encounter areas a number with a very brief description of the monster/treasure/feature.  When an encounter area is more important or requires more detail, I assign it a letter, instead.  So I have a small "letter key" of major/special areas and a large "number key" where each entry is little more than some jotted notes.

As the dungeon sees more play, I sometimes add more detail to the original key (so the frequently-used upper levels tend to have more detail than the less-frequently visited lower levels, for example).  The notes and detail are almost always things that come about through player questions or observations or comments.

I'm not interested in purchasing any published megadungeons, at this point.  If it's a minimal key megadungeon, I'd rather make my own.  And if it's a "descriptive key" megadungeon, I'd probably find that it's too much trouble to read and absorb it.  I almost *always* end up modifying published adventures to suit my tastes and preferences, so the prospect of reading/grokking/altering a published megadungeon with a descriptive key seems like too much work.

Besides, I think megadungeons are at their coolest when they evolve through actual play, with the players and the DM in a kind of creativity feedback loop.  To me, actual ongoing play is part of the megadungeon creation process, and not something I'd want to give up.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;583015I am a backer of the Doublefine Adventure game, which they only started development on once the kickstarter reached its funding goal. They're still writing the game, even though the kickstarter ended moths ago. Are you saying they should have paid a bunch of programmers to write the code before they had the money to pay them? It's absurd. No one expected a finished product right away.

It's just Entitlement that makes people feel they can demand something immediately and if there are delays in the production of a project then it's "a scam" or some nonsense.

Understand what the fuck a kickstarter is before climbing on a high horse.

For an RPG supplement, there is no reason for the creative writing not to be written at the time of starting a kickstarter campaign.  

Sure, RPG authors who want to be supported in the meantime will ask for that privilege, and fanboys - excuse me, big-hearted souls - can indulge them like that.  But in no way is monetary support in this hobby a prerequisite to producing material.

Who paid you to write your last dozen homebrew adventures?

Someone needs art, or printing costs, great.  That's a kickstarter I will support.  But I am paying a lot closer attention to the fine print and phrasing on these now, and unless we're talking about an established entity like FGG/Necro, if there is question as to whether or not the tough work (writing) is done, I won't be backing it no matter how fantastic the barker's draft makes it sound.

Quote from: RandallS;583120Most of the dungeons I created in the 1970s were keyed much like that. A few key rooms on each level were a bit more detailed, but not many. I'm using one of those dungeons in my Microlite74 Wilderlands campaign now. I understand people want more if they are going to pay for it, but I really don't want as much detail as many published adventures seem to provide.

I'm also a fan of minimalist keys for my homebrew notes. As I talked about recently, when you're writing something up for your own use you can trust your own voice to provide the logical and evocative details necessary to flesh things out.

Keys developed for private use should focus on essential details and awesome details.

The problem I have with a lot of these fetishized "old school minimalist" keys that the OSR has been producing in recent years is that they don't focus on the essential and awesome details. Instead, they're just a litany of the banal and the obvious.

They also tend to focus on the ephemeral details and de-emphasize memorable and interesting geography. But for a megadungeon that's completely backwards, IMO.

Quote from: estar;583116I have a theory, i.e. I haven't tried to write this up, that if you DON'T use the tournament style and develop an alternative that you can present the mega dungeon in a compact form.

I've found that it is possible to keep a relatively streamlined key that communicates your vision and that other people can use to good effect by dividing content into discrete tools that are clearly segregated. (I'm planning to write this up at some greater length in the near future over on the Alexandrian.)

Which isn't to say that the GM's personal voice is phased out: Shakespeare's job isn't to provide the performance and the scenario writer's job shouldn't be to run the adventure for the GM.

But if I'm paying money for something, I want a more interesting vision than "8 skeletons". Partly because that kind of content is so trivial I don't even need to prep notes for it. Mostly because, when I buy a product, I want the author's voice to be heard.

not that I am a backer, since Dwimmermount didn't appeal to me (I have my own megadungeon to create if I want and the vastly superior IMO Barrowmaze and soon Barrowmaze II), but there was an update by James M on G+:

I, more than anyone, am aware that Dwimmermount is behind its original overly optimistic schedule, but I think it's fair to say it'll see the light of day before 6e

Of course, he has reviewed another useless thing and did another blog post on Rival Adventuring Parties (which most DM's do something similar, and I know I do, so what a waste of time).

Quote from: EOTB;583141For an RPG supplement, there is no reason for the creative writing not to be written at the time of starting a kickstarter campaign.  

Sure, RPG authors who want to be supported in the meantime will ask for that privilege, and fanboys - excuse me, big-hearted souls - can indulge them like that.  But in no way is monetary support in this hobby a prerequisite to producing material.

Who paid you to write your last dozen homebrew adventures?

Someone needs art, or printing costs, great.  That's a kickstarter I will support.  But I am paying a lot closer attention to the fine print and phrasing on these now, and unless we're talking about an established entity like FGG/Necro, if there is question as to whether or not the tough work (writing) is done, I won't be backing it no matter how fantastic the barker's draft makes it sound.

Welcome to the RPG Site, EOTB.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;583140I'm not interested in purchasing any published megadungeons, at this point.  If it's a minimal key megadungeon, I'd rather make my own.  And if it's a "descriptive key" megadungeon, I'd probably find that it's too much trouble to read and absorb it.  I almost *always* end up modifying published adventures to suit my tastes and preferences, so the prospect of reading/grokking/altering a published megadungeon with a descriptive key seems like too much work.

As far as the State of the Art right now is, I agree with you. However I don't think what we have now for writing mega-dungeons (or any dungeon for that matter) has exhausted every approach.

It think it possible for one referee to teach another how to run X. We know this happened before with Rob Kuntz and Gary Gygax for the Greyhawk Campaign. Note I am not saying they did anything formal.

We also know that whatever a person can teach that it can be written so another who not physically present can learn.

Hence we just haven't stumbled on an effective way of writing up a large scale dungeon in such a way to teach somebody how to run it like the original referee.

I think it is worth pursuing because of the continuing interest that other referee have in other dungeons people have run notably Greyhawk and Blackmoor.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;583140Besides, I think megadungeons are at their coolest when they evolve through actual play, with the players and the DM in a kind of creativity feedback loop.  To me, actual ongoing play is part of the megadungeon creation process, and not something I'd want to give up.

I agree and somehow a new format will have to enable that.

It may wind up something more like Vornheim which is more about how to run Vornheim than a travelogue of Vornheim.

I think a product that explains how to create and run a megadungeon would be more valuable than a standard published map/key/description.

Quote from: KenHR;582804It's not curse words, it's not what you're saying.  It's more how you're saying it.

But hey, you're actually doing something positive with Dwimmerdust, which I've been watching, so there's that.

I will admit that my cursing might be a turn off, but to be honest if someone cannot handle it, then that's on them. Life is too short to be indirect. I choose to be direct.

As for Dwimmerdust, I am amazed with how many people either hate it or love it.

IRWS

Quote from: estar;582721Lets go back to playground 101 and being critical about another person.

You want to get them to do something (or stop) that they should be doing.

Or you want to make the rest of the world what this person is doing (or not) so they have all the information.

Jim the Scam
Jim is a scammer
His is a lazy creator
the hypocrisy is ripe

Tomatoe, watermelon.

QuoteIn my opinion these type of statements do nothing to achieve any of the above goals.  In fact they are counterproductive. Either they make the author and the people (like Tavis) so jaded that they quit or deliver a sub par. And/or  people ignore your further statements regardless of their truth because they don't like reading missives by assholes.

So what. This is my posting style, this is what I choose to do. You don't like it, so what. I refuse to be labeled a troll, because for me a troll only yells and offers nothing.

QuoteGiven that you repeatably posted like this, ignoring what been achieved to date, being inflexible about tavis' and James posts (both at Autarch and Kickstarter) along with assuming that you are a reasonably intelligent human being.

Ok, I'll play. All updates, up until I started bitching were private. Here is the timeline:

Bully for you. We only started getting weekly updates once a stink was raised. Look at the timeline:

Update 1 -- 3/3/2012
Update 2 -- 3/3/2012
Update 3 -- 3/5/2012
Update 4 -- 3/7/2012
Update 5 -- 3/21/2012
Update 6 -- 3/21/2012
Update 7 -- 4/7/2012
Update 8 -- 4/8/2012
Update 9 -- 4/11/2012
Update 10 -- 4/13/2012
Update 11 -- 4/14/2012
Update 12 -- 4/14/2012
Update 13 -- 4/14/2012
Update 14 -- 4/17/2012

Update 15 -- 4/27/2012
Update 16 -- 5/5/2012
Update 17 -- 6/4/2012
Update 18 -- 6/24/2012
Update 19 -- 7/6/2012
Update 20 -- 8/10/2012
Update 21 -- 8/17/2012
Update 22 -- 8/24/2012
Update 23 -- 8/31/2012

When did we learn that this project was up a creek? Around 8/21. We actually started learning anything, 9/9.

Here's the thing, this was fucked from the start, and the fact that the Kickstarter announced PDF in June and Book in August, one can assume that this was further along then we thought.

It was only because people started bitching around 8/10 did anything come out. In addition, all of this was kept private, which is equally a joke. Mind you, Jim has no problem posting on his blog, but never once during that time could he clue people in on what is going on?

Whatever, you have decided I'm the bad guy.

IRWS

Quote from: Fiasco;582737Runs With Scissors has clearly written off his investment. 'Gentle words' for the person responsible are clearly not on his agenda and fair enough. As a backer I would be genuinely concerned that James will be cranking out any old shit just to fulfill his obligations (up to a year late).

This is the thing, gamers are willing to take it up the ass, and not realize that this project is going to be just that. Jim churning out shit to fill it up.

IRWS