Quote from: The Traveller;583035How so, in the expedition style you leave undefended caches of food and supplies for people to pick up as they go along. Colonial expansions call those forts since they are defended. Any situation where you can expect hostile organised resistance is a de facto invasion, not an expedition.

You hide the caches.

Quote from: The Traveller;583035Maybe in the case of Moria there was no resistance but that doesn't seem to make sense in light of the ensuing difficulties. Even if there wasn't any opposition you'd expect the dwarves to take an offensive stance from the get-go, and maintain it too.

Moria was a fairly empty place. And so were Greyhawk and Blackmoor. The latter can be read in First Fantasy Campaigns published by Judges Guild.

Quote from: LordVreeg;583066Just because hostilities are expected does not make it an invasion.  That is ridiculous, nor are the two terms mutually exclusive.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;583082Only if we're re-defining the word "invasion", because otherwise, that's a complete and utter bullshit statement.

I can pull sentences out of context of the comment and attack them too, folks. Although if you want to pointlessly quibble on semantics technically even a burglary is called a "home invasion", its a perfectly adequate use of the term, in particular with reference to the "de facto" qualifier.

Quote from: daniel_ream;583090We're apparently redefining "dungeon" to mean "exploring Darkest Africa", so what the hell.

Seriously, this is reaching Ron Edwards-level of malapropism here.

This.

Quote from: estar;583121You hide the caches.

That's not even going to be dignified with a response. I would however be interested to read your sources on Tolkien's dwarven subterranean colonisation tactics, since I'm not aware that there are any.

Quote from: estar;583121Moria was a fairly empty place. And so were Greyhawk and Blackmoor. The latter can be read in First Fantasy Campaigns published by Judges Guild.

Moria was like the sea - big and dark, but never empty.

Quote from: daniel_ream;582539I don't think I've used a "dungeon"[1] in a fantasy setting in quite possibly decades at this point.  They're an artificial metagame construct that simply makes no sense in most settings.
(...)
I prefer ruined cities, temples to evil gods, undersea grottoes, soaring spired palaces, that kind of thing if I'm going to have a "dungeon".

[1] In the FRPG sense of the term

That's weird, I always thought that "ruined cities, temples to evil gods, undersea grottoes, soaring spired palaces" were "dungeons" in the FRPG sense of the term. (Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, Temple of Elemental Evil, Blood Sea of Istar, Castle Ravenloft, High Clerist Tower...)

Quote from: Melan;582751Every time I read another "so why would people like dungeon" post nowadays, I just die a bit inside.

One convention that I regularly attend has a very large number of Das Schwarze Auge gamers. Some of them still mock D&D and dungeons to this day, without having played a single session.

Dungeonslayers has become quite a hit among those DSA gamers... The default DS module? An OSR one-page-dungeon style "Dungeon 2 Go".

So far, the irony has escaped them.

Quote from: StormBringer;582990I watched Conan the Destroyer again last night.  It's like someone reached into the collective consciousness of all gamers and distilled all the awesome they found.  It's more AD&D than AD&D.

So very true, from the way the party is formed to the weird mirror room in the sorcerer's spire. Plus: witty banter at the camp fire.
Only the finale looks a bit scripted ("you arrive just in time to witness the ceremony") but then, Dragonlance was AD&D...

Quote from: The Traveller;583128I can pull sentences out of context of the comment and attack them too, folks. Although if you want to pointlessly quibble on semantics technically even a burglary is called a "home invasion", its a perfectly adequate use of the term, in particular with reference to the "de facto" qualifier.

Yes, you can and do.
But your comment was pretty simple, unless you'd like to explain it better, very easy to decipher.
 This statement,
"Any situation where you can expect hostile organised resistance is a de facto invasion, not an expedition. "
specifically sets the two terms, 'expedition' and 'invasion,' as mutually exclusive, and the use of the word, 'any' makes it an absolute global statement.  The term 'de facto' as a qualifier merely says that this is what happens in this situation, in fact if not by law, and has no mitigating properties.

So, unless there is something I am missing, (and I am all ears here), please excuse people for reading the words you wrote as they are written and not as you might have meant them.  Context has little to do with an absolute statement.

Quote from: The Traveller

Quote from: Originally Posted by daniel_reamWe're apparently redefining "dungeon" to mean "exploring Darkest Africa", so what the hell.

Seriously, this is reaching Ron Edwards-level of malapropism here.

This.

Well, it seems that Dirk, Ben and a few others of us have diffrent ideas what makes a 'dungeon'.

Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeThat's weird, I always thought that "ruined cities, temples to evil gods, undersea grottoes, soaring spired palaces" were "dungeons" in the FRPG sense of the term. (Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, Temple of Elemental Evil, Blood Sea of Istar, Castle Ravenloft, High Clerist Tower...)

Quote from: meWhen you do this long enough, you can draw out the adventure, set the encounters and traps and difficulties, place the area interchanges, and there is no difference.
What else is a 'dungeon' in RPG terminology, especially if you go back to the beginning, but the 'exploration zone'?

So this term of 'Exploration Zone' seems to be what some of us could use interchangably and synonymously with the term 'Dungeon'.  This includes the subteranean exploration of the D series modules, which was days and days of travel, and I still think of it in the same way in some of my more recent adventure designs.

If you don't want to drift the definition of "dungeon", then "site-based adventure" is a reasonable if dull-sounding alternative term.

Quote from: LordVreeg;583174Yes, you can and do.
But your comment was pretty simple, unless you'd like to explain it better, very easy to decipher.
 This statement,
"Any situation where you can expect hostile organised resistance is a de facto invasion, not an expedition. "
specifically sets the two terms, 'expedition' and 'invasion,' as mutually exclusive, and the use of the word, 'any' makes it an absolute global statement.  The term 'de facto' as a qualifier merely says that this is what happens in this situation, in fact if not by law, and has no mitigating properties.

Eh you realise you've just said that the sky is indeed blue, but that doesn't make it blue.

Quote from: LordVreeg;583174So, unless there is something I am missing, (and I am all ears here), please excuse people for reading the words you wrote as they are written and not as you might have meant them.  Context has little to do with an absolute statement.

Definetely putting *trigger warning* in future titles

Quote from: LordVreeg;583174Well, it seems that Dirk, Ben and a few others of us have diffrent ideas what makes a 'dungeon'.

Yes, people have different ideas about things.

Quote from: Grymbok;583175If you don't want to drift the definition of "dungeon", then "site-based adventure" is a reasonable if dull-sounding alternative term.

Well I was reading that thead about James M apparently conning people and how everyone was looking forward to a good dungeon, and the incongruity of it just leapt out. Its even more of a pileup than "sandbox" and I'm afraid to get into what people think "gonzo" means.

I would like that last sentence stricken from the record, on the grounds that handbags would explode the thread.

At this stage its just people rehashing old arguments they think they're having anew. And LordVreeg seems to have discovered a grammatical Möbius loop of some sort.

The level of definition-douchebaggery got pretty high in this one, didn't it?

Personally, once the concepts are communicated clearly, I feel the onus of the communicator has ended.  Bitching about misuse of words seems less an RPG discussion and more a masturbatory exercise for people who like to think themselves as better than their peers.

Surely that was a side-effect, and not the intent, yeah?

Quote from: LordVreeg;583174Well, it seems that Dirk, Ben and a few others  us have different ideas what makes a 'dungeon'.

So this term of 'Exploration Zone' seems to be what some of us could use interchangably and synonymously with the term 'Dungeon'.  This includes the subteranean exploration of the D series modules, which was days and days of travel, and I still think of it in the same way in some of my more recent adventure designs.

I will add that most of the terms being used "dungeons", etc are descriptive i..e describes what people actually do. They are not perfect fits because what they are describing are new types of entertainment/games.

In the late 60s the dungeon meant a underground prison. By the late 70s it took on the added meaning of a series of underground mazes with keyed rooms filled with monsters and treasure.

To confuse things further it turns out that that the keyed map concept could be applied to many other type of locations such as wildernesses, and cities. That there is a large overlap in what you do to prepare both.

And to add to the complexity it was found that because of the focus on the individual character,  roleplaying games have enormous flexibilty. Adventures and campaign can be created and run that don't involve much in the way of keyed locations at all. For example a murder mystery focusing on the player meeting various NPCs rather than detailing locations.

In truth nearly all role-playing campaigns are hybrid which the exact mix based on the referee and players interests and preferences.  It is rare when a session or a campaign is just all about one thing. A campaign centered around a dungeon could easily have a murder mystery or a solving a murder mystery could involve exploring a dungeon.

The dungeon continues to fascinate beyond it virtues of simplicity and ease of prep because a maze with keyed room is a blank slate.  To be filled with the contents of the referee own creation.  It doesn't have to be ruins filled with monsters and treasures. It can be an active lair requiring an invasion planned in a military style. It could be a vast network of caverns like the D series requiring expeditions similar to spelunking. Or anything else.

In Playing at the World, the esstential difference between RPGs and Boardgames/Wargames was the fact that RPGs are games in which anything can be attempted. That statement is not only true of the player side but the referee side. RPGs are also games where anything can be created for the players to experience.

So in the end is boils down to personal preference and individual tastes. Added to this is the fact some elements of roleplaying are going to be more popular than others. Dungeons happen to be one of those elements that proved to be enduring since the beginning of the hobby.

Quote from: The Traveller;583176Eh you realise you've just said that the sky is indeed blue, but that doesn't make it blue.

No.  I can't even see where you are getting that from, in all honesty.  You complained that your comment was taken out of context.  I broke down said comment, in which you made the statement that 'expedition' and 'invasion' are mutually exclusive if organized resistance is anticipated, with only the term 'invasion' being proper.

And I am aware people have different ideas about things, but we were talking about a specific term in this thread, and specific points and questions have been raised.
 How do you feel the term 'dungeon' compares with 'site-based adventure' and 'exploration zone'?

Quote from: LordVreeg;583174What else is a 'dungeon' in RPG terminology, especially if you go back to the beginning, but the 'exploration zone'?

Technically it's a graph, which is what distinguishes it from an open city, necropolis, besieged keep, etc.

I don't really like the "site based adventure" expression because to me, what's being designed is not the adventure, but the means or tools for the GM to run the game so the PCs experience the adventure, i.e. the adventure is what you do in actual play, not what's in your notes.

I think the "exploration site" is a better equivalent.

Quote from: Benoist;583191I don't really like the "site based adventure" expression because to me, what's being designed is not the adventure, but the means or tools for the GM to run the game so the PCs experience the adventure, i.e. the adventure is what you do in actual play, not what's in your notes.

I think the "exploration site" is a better equivalent.

Yes, I have the same feeling.

Quote from: estar;583187I will add that most of the terms being used "dungeons", etc are descriptive i..e describes what people actually do. They are not perfect fits because what they are describing are new types of entertainment/games.

...

So in the end is boils down to personal preference and individual tastes. Added to this is the fact some elements of roleplaying are going to be more popular than others. Dungeons happen to be one of those elements that proved to be enduring since the beginning of the hobby.

An insightful summation, thanks.

Quote from: LordVreeg;583188No.  I can't even see where you are getting that from, in all honesty.  You complained that your comment was taken out of context.  I broke down said comment, in which you made the statement that 'expedition' and 'invasion' are mutually exclusive if organized resistance is anticipated, with only the term 'invasion' being proper.

I really don't care enough to argue it out with you.

I'm right though.

Quote from: estar;583187How do you feel the term 'dungeon' compares with 'site-based adventure' and 'exploration zone'?

Quote from: Benoist;583191I think the "exploration site" is a better equivalent.

Dungeon really does have a very negative connotation. At best for most people stumbling in its an S&M fetish vibe, and other than our newest mod I'm not sure how many of us are into that sort of thing.

What, decadent orgies weren't a part of Roman politics?

Quote from: The Traveller;583194Dungeon really does have a very negative connotation.

Let's try this one more time. Somehow, when you think of pizza, the first and only thing that comes to mind is the frozen stuff, and when someone tries to tell you that is not representative of all a pizza can be, you basically resort to the notion that we're making shit up and agree we're like Ron Edwards and all that (Thanks, Daniel, fuck you too).

My God. Do you have any idea how stubbornly ignorant and entitled (yes, entitled: "I don't know what the fuck I am talking about but whatever! My opinion is just as good by virtue of being an opinion!") you sound right now?