Can any game other than D&D still get away with requiring you to buy more than one "core" book in order to be able to play?

RPGPundit

Which other RPGs have tried this approach before?

GURPS borders on it.  Theoretically you can play with just Characters but really you need a world book and a tech book and a magic book and the Campaigns book.

Rolemaster really needs Arms Law, Character Law, Spell Law, and Creatures and Treasures.  Rolemaster Fantasy Roleplay got it down to one book but it wasn't the best idea IMO.  It's just not a game you play because you want less.

I don't know if either of them counts as "getting away with it" Rolemaster's only around in .pdf and pod these days and GURPS is a less profitable side line for SJG.

Dresden Files was released as two book, one for the rules and one for the setting. As the rules are not generic Fate but designed specifically for Dresden I would say they counts as core books.

Sure, you can play the game with just the rules, but by the same token you can D&D with just the PHB.

Shadowrun. You can play from the corebook, but there's a splatbook that's pretty essential for your team specialisation.

Of course... you don't need all the splatbooks. Just your one.

Quote from: RPGPundit;583055Can any game other than D&D still get away with requiring you to buy more than one "core" book in order to be able to play?

RPGPundit

off the top of my head...

Warhammer (after 1st edition)
Star Wars (D6)
Rolemaster
GURPs
nWoD
Dragon Age
Dresden Files
Pathfinder
Imagine
The Burning Wheel
7th Sea



...it's not an approach I like. For me, WHFRP 1E still, this many years later, sets the standard for a "complete" RPG core book. Very few games have managed to rise above the supplement mill approach, though quite a few are at least playable with the main book if you're willing to make up most of the game yourself (which I generally am).

Quote from: Ladybird;583076Shadowrun. You can play from the corebook, but there's a splatbook that's pretty essential for your team specialisation.

Of course... you don't need all the splatbooks. Just your one.

I've played 2e off and on for close to 20 years. Have never bought a single supplement.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583077off the top of my head...

Warhammer (after 1st edition)
Star Wars (D6)
Rolemaster
GURPs
nWoD
Dragon Age
Dresden Files
Pathfinder
Imagine
The Burning Wheel
7th Sea

...it's not an approach I like. For me, WHFRP 1E still, this many years later, sets the standard for a "complete" RPG core book. Very few games have managed to rise above the supplement mill approach, though quite a few are at least playable with the main book if you're willing to make up most of the game yourself (which I generally am).

And this is the issue with discussions of "stand alone" corebook. Many on that list are distinct from D&D in that all the rules needed to play are contained in the corebook, but some people have a perception that they are somehow incomplete, such as:

Warhammer (after 1st edition) - both 2e and 3e have complete rules for play
Star Wars (D6) - has complete rules for play
nWoD - has complete rules for play as mortals
Dragon Age - has complete rules for play up to level 5
The Burning Wheel - the two books that have complete rules for play are purchased as a single item.

Hero 6E tried this, and the reactions were decidedly mixed.

(Also, is volume 1 still out of print?)

Quote from: TristramEvans;583079I've played 2e off and on for close to 20 years. Have never bought a single supplement.

Im with Tristram on this one. Played Shadowrun 2e for a very long time before buying the first supplement (Street Samurai Catalog), and it worked perfectly.

Quote from: Skywalker;583083And this is the issue with discussions of "stand alone" corebook. Many on that list are distinct from D&D in that all the rules needed to play are contained in the corebook, but some people have a perception that they are somehow incomplete, such as:

Warhammer (after 1st edition) - both 2e and 3e have complete rules for play

It's been a long time since I looked at 2e, but with 3e you either need at least 2 books, 3 if you want stats for monsters. More if you want the dice and such. There is the option of the big boxed set which has all you need to play for about 3 players + gm, but about 1/10th of the info in the books without the rules updates.

QuoteStar Wars (D6) - has complete rules for play

Not the 1st edition. 2 books. Unless you don't actually want to play Star Wars, but a generic space game.

QuotenWoD - has complete rules for play as mortals

Okay, but say you want to play ANY of the gamelines: Promethean, Vampire, Changeling. None of these are complete games. Hence "nWoD" , not "mortals".

QuoteDragon Age - has complete rules for play up to level 5

and then...?

QuoteThe Burning Wheel - the two books that have complete rules for play are purchased as a single item.

They can be, or not. Just like you could purchase at various times, for D&D, a boxed set of the Player's Guide and DM's Guide. Two UPCs.

Quote from: Xavier Onassiss;583085Hero 6E tried this, and the reactions were decidedly mixed.

Did it stop anyone other than me from buying it?

Quote from: TristramEvans;583098It's been a long time since I looked at 2e, but with 3e you either need at least 2 books, 3 if you want stats for monsters. More if you want the dice and such. There is the option of the big boxed set which has all you need to play for about 3 players + gm, but about 1/10th of the info in the books without the rules updates.

Yes, you get all of this if you buy the single box set. The books were released later as an optional path. You are right that for that path, you need to buy several products.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583098Not the 1st edition. 2 books.

I played with just the 1e Star Wars WEG book for years. It requires no other books that I am aware of.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583098Okay, but say you want to play ANY of the gamelines: Promethean, Vampire, Changeling. None of these are complete games. Hence "nWoD" , not "mortals".

I agree that Vampire the Requiem et al are not complete games in one book. But nWoD is a complete rulebook for horror games set in nWoD with mortal PCs.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583098and then...?

All RPGs that have level based advancement have an end point. This is rarely seen as a reason to call them incomplete. Even Dragon Age will have an end point at level 20, which if you applied your criteria would make it technically never complete.

Quote from: TristramEvans;583098They can be, or not. Just like you could purchase at various times, for D&D a boxed set of the Player's Guide and DM's Guide. Two UPCs.

BWHQ sells them as a set, and the split is merely for convenience. Other RPGs are done this way, often contained in a slipcase or some such.

Sure, they may be split in the second hand market but this is no different than if someone ripped out chapters from a rulebook and tried to sell them seperately. I don't think that qualifies the game requiring multiple core products.

The one thing that this does highlight IMO is that though very few publishers create multiple "Core" products in the way D&D does, they do strive for ways to make their customers feel a need to own and buy other products. Its a conflict between the customer's desire to have a complete product and the publisher's desire to sell more product. D&D is different in that it is blatantly honest about the approach and does not try and even provide a single core product.

Fireborn (player/GM split)
Dragon Warriors (Corgi edition; book 1 had the rules for knights and barbarians and general adventuring, book 2 had sorcerer and mystic and magic rules, book 4 had assassin and stealth rules, etc.)

Some foreign examples:

Das Schwarze Auge (fighter/wizard/cleric/GM split)
Midgard (fourth edition; general rules/magic/GM split)
Meikyuu Kingdom (second edition; player/GM split)
Sword World 2.0 (in the BECMI/Dragon Age sense: higher levels in later products)

Quote from: Skywalker;583104Yes, you get all of this if you buy the single box set. The books were released later as an optional path. You are right that for that path, you need to buy several products.

So yes, it's a gameline with multiple "core products", just like D&D, which has also offered starter boxes with the release of almost every edition, and just like WH3E the boxed set has less info than the individual volumes.

QuoteI played with just the 1e Star Wars WEG book for years. It requires no other books that I am aware of.

Then you weren't aware of the second book and just made the stuff up yourself. More on that in a bit....

QuoteI agree that Vampire the Requiem et al are not complete games in one book. But nWoD is a complete rulebook for horror games set in nWoD with mortal PCs.

The acronym nWoD does not refer to The World of Darkness book with rules for playing mortals, it refers to several gamelines including Vampire, Changeling, Werewolf, Mage, Promethean, etc, all of which require two core books. Just as oWoD refers to a number of gamelines that did not require two core books to play.

Another example would be the SiliCore gameline, including Heavy Gear and Tribe 8. To play any of the games required the purchase of the setting book ("player's guide") and the SiliCORE main rules.

QuoteAll RPGs that have level based advancement have an end point. This is rarely seen as a reason to call them incomplete. Even Dragon Age will have an end point at level 20, which if you applied your criteria would make it technically never complete.

No, if you applied my criteria, a game that has a stated limit of 20 levels, advertised as such before releasing the first product, obviously expects players to buy several products to play the whole game.

QuoteBWHQ sells them as a set, and the split is merely for convenience.

So, exactly the same as D&D.

QuoteOther RPGs are done this way, often contained in a slipcase or some such.

Games in slipcases rarely sell the individual volumes seperately, and the slipcase itself has a UPC as an individual product.  BW did not have a slipcase, you can purchase the books individually or with a small strip of cardboard holding them together.

QuoteSure, they may be split in the second hand market but this is no different than if someone ripped out chapters from a rulebook and tried to sell them seperately. I don't think that qualifies the game requiring multiple core products.

No, you could order the individual books seperately. From Diamond. First hand market. And you're still missing another core product, if you want any stats for monsters or any creature besides the 4 character races.

QuoteThe one thing that this does highlight IMO is that though very few publishers create multiple "Core" products in the way D&D does

Actually it highlights the exact opposite. What you're showing is that you're applying completely different standards to D&D and the rest of these products.

You "can" play D&D with just the PG. If you're willing to make up the rest of the game yourself. That's true of all of these games, except Burning Wheel. The "full game rules" however, are not included in the PG, just as they aren't included in any 1 of the books mentioned above.