Opinions on D&D Next Undead draining

RandallS · September 05, 2012, 02:50:57 PM

Quote from: taknight;580080This seems hellish as far as bookkeeping goes. There are multiple pieces of information to keep track of/remember on a regular basis during game time. (What -ve level came from what creature, how many HD the creature has, how many days since recovering a -ve level, how many -ve levels the character has any time they make a die roll...)

In practice, it's apparently not bad. I use plain old level drains (or CON drains depending on the setting) and always will. But a number of M74 groups I know of use these alternative rules and seem to like them. They provide the main effect of a level drain (you do everything more poorly) without having to modify the character sheet. However, it recovers naturally -- if slowly -- without the need for the high level restoration spell.

Microlite74 is an old school game and as such encourages GM to ignore or rewrirte any rules they don't want to use in their campaigns, so I'm sure that there are groups ignoring level drains completely or handling them in their own houseruled manner.

Soylent Green · September 05, 2012, 03:31:37 PM

Quote from: jibbajibba;579805Sadly with D&D as the mechanism for improving at combat is more Hit points and not you get harder to hit it means that there is almost no way to avoid being hit.

Therefore attacks of this type don't really work.

Very good point. I like the concept of level draining critters as really does spook even the most the players like nothing else. Powerful stuff. But what you say makes a lot of sense.

Or to put it another way, if Hit Points are represent not just wounds but a more abstract measure of the characters luck, fatigue and such would it not make more sense if the risk level drain only kicked in once the character had lost a certain percentage of his hit points (luck runs out, the character is more tired and vulnerable)? And from a gameplay point of view, wouldn't that give the player a fair warning regarding when it might be a good time to start running (which is one of the things Hit Points do already?).

jibbajibba · September 06, 2012, 05:42:36 PM

Quote from: Soylent Green;580110Very good point. I like the concept of level draining critters as really does spook even the most the players like nothing else. Powerful stuff. But what you say makes a lot of sense.

Or to put it another way, if Hit Points are represent not just wounds but a more abstract measure of the characters luck, fatigue and such would it not make more sense if the risk level drain only kicked in once the character had lost a certain percentage of his hit points (luck runs out, the character is more tired and vulnerable)? And from a gameplay point of view, wouldn't that give the player a fair warning regarding when it might be a good time to start running (which is one of the things Hit Points do already?).

If you have an underlying wound system that woudl work.

We kicked around some ideas for that that ranged from the one I ahve been using for years where HP are ablative and recover fast but after a hit of a certain size you take 'wound' damge which is injury, to the much simpler idea that the HP you roll at 1st level are your physical damage and HP add to that total but again are ablative and heal fast representing your abstract stuff.
If such a system is in use then a wound from an undead drains a level would work except ..... it would probably kill you anyway....but it might not

RPGPundit · September 06, 2012, 06:10:57 PM

I've never had the admiration for level-drain mechanics some other old-school gamers seem to have. I agree, it makes undead "more scary", but in a way for the wrong (mechanical, rather than emulative) reasons. And I do agree that it often means you're looking at a situation where how badly you get fucked up is as much a question of lucky shots as anything else.

That said, I've certainly used level-draining in any of my old school games (including my present Albion campaigns). However, in Arrows of Indra I've avoided it for the monsters, though there were a few that could certainly have used that mechanic, I ended up choosing alternative ways of fucking you up.

RPGPundit

StormBringer · September 06, 2012, 07:02:42 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;580476I agree, it makes undead "more scary", but in a way for the wrong (mechanical, rather than emulative) reasons.

But that is about the only way to get to the emulative result. Otherwise, you need buy in from all your players that they agree to run away when the wights jump out of the bushes. Or some other mechanic that forces them to flee, or cower in fear, or whatever.

I agree it isn't necessarily the best solution, but it is fairly elegant. If the players avoid combat with the undead, they don't have to worry about losing levels. Or a run 'n gun guerilla attack, like people in zombie movies. No one there just stands around and blasts away, either.

jibbajibba · September 06, 2012, 07:16:42 PM

Quote from: StormBringer;580499But that is about the only way to get to the emulative result. Otherwise, you need buy in from all your players that they agree to run away when the wights jump out of the bushes. Or some other mechanic that forces them to flee, or cower in fear, or whatever.

I agree it isn't necessarily the best solution, but it is fairly elegant. If the players avoid combat with the undead, they don't have to worry about losing levels. Or a run 'n gun guerilla attack, like people in zombie movies. No one there just stands around and blasts away, either.

But zombies in movies don't level drain they just kill you eat your brians and you turn into a zombie. People in Armies of Orcs in Downtown Manhattan movies woudl act the same way.

If you just need to make 'draining' undead scary then I think there are more elegant methods that don't jar with versimitude (people forgetting how to cook, ride a horse, track, swing a sword etc ...)

Silverlion · September 06, 2012, 08:16:58 PM

Never used level draining. Not once. I usually used custom undead, which had their own nasty powers and weaknesses

Example: "Could not be killed without X strange but folklore inspired thing being done" Like the one which you had to nail its shoes on with silver nails. Of course the thing could wipe out villages before people figured out what it was and what it was doing

Of course it could walk through walls, but was otherwise corporeal, most weapons simply stuck in its body so it could drag you to its chilling lethal hands or maw...

StormBringer · September 06, 2012, 08:52:58 PM

Quote from: jibbajibba;580512But zombies in movies don't level drain they just kill you eat your brians and you turn into a zombie.

Of course, but it is the same result. Movie characters don't just stand around blasting away at the zombies because they will get infected if they are bitten or scratched or whatever the director thinks is dramatic. That is what makes them scary. Take that away, and they are just rotting corpses that wander around. Sure, getting eaten alive is pretty horrible, but getting infected and turning into a zombie is what keeps everyone on the run.

fectin · September 06, 2012, 08:55:10 PM

Purely from a mechanical standpoint, I recommend looking at the 3.5 negative level system. Essentially, undead hand out "negative levels" instead of direct level loss. Each negative level carries specific penalties (-1 to nearly everything; -5hp). A day later, you make saves to make them go away instead of be permanent level loss.

Why is that better? Two reasons: 1) you get simpler combats because you don't level down in the middle of combat, and have simple penalties instead of calculated ones; and 2) you get to buff up to have the best possible chance to avoid actual level loss.

Bedrockbrendan · September 06, 2012, 08:55:50 PM

I had a Gm who gave his zombies a paralytic touch ability (quite like a ghoul). I dont know if he took them from a supplement or if they were a varient i hadnt noticed, but pretty scary. Something about been stuck there while this slow moving monster tries to eat you was pretty effective.

StormBringer · September 06, 2012, 09:00:58 PM

Quote from: fectin;580552Purely from a mechanical standpoint, I recommend looking at the 3.5 negative level system. Essentially, undead hand out "negative levels" instead of direct level loss. Each negative level carries specific penalties (-1 to nearly everything; -5hp). A day later, you make saves to make them go away instead of be permanent level loss.

I don't have anything against a less permanent version. I think a day is a bit short, but that is a preference quibble. I simply maintain that level-loss in Vintage Games isn't the game ending tragedy some make it out to be. Mechanically, it does exactly what it intends, which is to make the undead more than just another bag of experience points.

StormBringer · September 06, 2012, 09:02:10 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;580554I had a Gm who gave his zombies a paralytic touch ability (quite like a ghoul). I dont know if he took them from a supplement or if they were a varient i hadnt noticed, but pretty scary. Something about been stuck there while this slow moving monster tries to eat you was pretty effective.

That is a pretty good idea. Consider it stolen.

RandallS · September 06, 2012, 09:13:28 PM

Quote from: jibbajibba;580512But zombies in movies don't level drain they just kill you eat your brians and you turn into a zombie.

Zombie in TSR D&D don't do energy drains.

Nor do they turn you into a zombie as zombie in D&D are caused by some weird disease or mutation but by a MU animating the dead -- although I suspect this might have been different if the "zombies eat your brains and turn you into a zombie" flicks had been popular in the late 1970s.

RPGPundit · September 07, 2012, 10:38:19 PM

Quote from: RandallS;580562Zombie in TSR D&D don't do energy drains.

Nor do they turn you into a zombie as zombie in D&D are caused by some weird disease or mutation but by a MU animating the dead -- although I suspect this might have been different if the "zombies eat your brains and turn you into a zombie" flicks had been popular in the late 1970s.

I'm pretty sure there were versions of D&D where if a zombie killed you, you did in fact come back as a zombie...

RPGPundit

RandallS · September 07, 2012, 10:59:54 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;580902I'm pretty sure there were versions of D&D where if a zombie killed you, you did in fact come back as a zombie...

A quick check of the zombie in OD&D, Holmes Basic, Moldvay Basic, 1e, and BECMI/RC does not turn up such an ability for the zombie. Perhaps 2e or a non-standard variety?