Disclaimer:  I'm talking more in the context of AD&D, and not 3e or 4e since I really don't play those versions.


In the playtest packet, one thing I noticed were changes to the undead's draining ability.  In AD&D, if you got hit by a wight or vampire, you lost levels.  In Next, if you get hit, you take necrotic damage (a wight's is 1d8+2, or not very much in the context of D&D next damage) and the wight gains 1/2 of that back to hit points lost.

Undead have always been the "oh shit!" monster in D&D for our group.  Losing levels was major.  Now, it seems like they are just minor inconveniences.  After all, a wight is a level 3 elite creature.  A level 1 warlock does 3d8 eldritch damage each round, and a level 1 fighter could do 1d8+6 damage each round.  Those are level 1 characters going against a level 3 elite.

Maybe it's just me, but I think they've been neutered too much.  I don't mind the loss of losing levels, but the energy drain power should be more fearsome.

How are they treating necrotic damage? Especially difficult to heal damage can be every bit as "oh shit RUN" worthy in the short term as level drain can be in the long term.

If it's no harder to heal that's sort of disappointing.

Level loss in the true old school sense opened up a bit of a can of worms in terms of reverse-engineering your character sheet, right? (I mean, I was young enough and careless enough with the rules at the time that I'm not sure I was doing it "right".) Hence the "fix" in 3rd ed D&D where it became "level loss lite" as it were. Don't know anything about 4e, can't comment.

IMHO reasonable ways of getting the same spirit with less red tape could include ability score damage and virtually unhealable damage. I mean why not just say any time an undead creature hits you with a natural roll of 15 or less on d20 then one tenth of the damage it does, rounding up, is simply permanent. OK, OK, Constitution-save to resist.

That would soon see people treating even the lowliest skeleton with newfound respect :-)

I always thought that level drain on a hit was a cheap sucker punch - in any halfway serious combat situation you can't really do anything to avoid getting hit, and so a permanent and serious loss becomes a matter of dumb luck and statistical inevitability rather than the result of player skill.

I've adopted Melan's solution, where formerly level-draining undead simply do ability damage, typically Constitution or Strength: getting drained to zero kills you, normal healing spells won't restore your loss, but you regain them at a rate of 1 point a day. This stll keeps them dangerous (especially incorporeal undead which ignore armour) and your handicap (lower attack modifier or total HP) is bound to linger around for a significant period of time, but removes the "Ha-ha, FUCK YOU FOREVER!" unfairness of level loss.

Can't / don't really want to comment on 5th edition's solution.

As a DM I always hated old-school level drain as written. Not because it's harsh (God knows, my players will tell you I have no problem with harsh) but because of the XP and HP book-keeping hassle.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;579775In Next, if you get hit, you take necrotic damage (a wight's is 1d8+2, or not very much in the context of D&D next damage) and the wight gains 1/2 of that back to hit points lost.

Lame.

You can have my level-draining undead when you pry them from my cold, dead, fingers.  Or something like that...

Quote from: beejazz;579779How are they treating necrotic damage? Especially difficult to heal damage can be every bit as "oh shit RUN" worthy in the short term as level drain can be in the long term.

If it's no harder to heal that's sort of disappointing.

It doesn't say.  Not where I could find anyway.  If it is just regular damage, that's going to get houseruled.  I'm thinking "damage that cannot be healed other than 1 hp per day".

Quote from: beejazz;579779How are they treating necrotic damage? Especially difficult to heal damage can be every bit as "oh shit RUN" worthy in the short term as level drain can be in the long term.

I like this, its thematically fitting.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;579775Maybe it's just me, but I think they've been neutered too much.  I don't mind the loss of losing levels, but the energy drain power should be more fearsome.

In my games, undead either drain levels or constitution -- depending on the game world. If I end up liking 5e enough to run it, my worlds would still work that way as setting always trumps rules in my book. If I were to create a new world, I doubt I would use the current 5e system because, as you say, it neuters undead too much.

I do like the level loss from undead, because nothing terrified me more as a player than level loss. Definitely makes undead frightening. As a gm I at least like having variants that do other things like drain con so I have an alternative to the big gun level drain vampire or wight.

I am all for powerful undead doing permanent physical stat loss.

Sadly with D&D as the mechanism for improving at combat is more Hit points and not you get harder to hit it means that there is almost no way to avoid being hit.

Therefore attacks of this type don't really work.

I think the best compromise is damage that can't be healed except by 'x' although that gets a little book-keeping intense. I would make X magical healing becuase then you are saying its an unnatural wound that can only be cured by divine providence, but in D&D magical healing by divine providence is actually more common that natural healing so its a pretty daft option.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;579798It doesn't say.  Not where I could find anyway.  If it is just regular damage, that's going to get houseruled.  I'm thinking "damage that cannot be healed other than 1 hp per day".

Quote from: The Traveller;579800I like this, its thematically fitting.

If you guys are in the playtest, be sure and include it in the feedback. Not enough time to participate myself.

But yeah, in 3x BoVD there was "vile damage" that was harder to heal. I think there might've been tougher restorative magic called for rather than a slower rate, but I'm not sure. IIRC it worked out pretty well.

I'm more or less on the same page with those who want level drain's scariness without it's book keeping. Undead shouldn't feel like humanoids. They should have something appropriately horrific for each variety.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;579775Maybe it's just me, but I think they've been neutered too much.  I don't mind the loss of losing levels, but the energy drain power should be more fearsome.

I'm happy with AD&D.

Quote from: jibbajibba;579805I think the best compromise is damage that can't be healed except by 'x' although that gets a little book-keeping intense. I would make X magical healing becuase then you are saying its an unnatural wound that can only be cured by divine providence, but in D&D magical healing by divine providence is actually more common that natural healing so its a pretty daft option.

On book keeping, the best way to track something like this is to have a thing deal normal damage and separately track the "vile damage" total. Then you can't heal past the vile stuff.

As for magic, at minimum I'd say something that takes a long time to cast should be required. It means you have to flee the fight before you can properly heal.

If it takes a long time it becomes a cue to leave the dungeon entirely (rather than just the fight) and if there are a lot of undead, you may not survive the trip to the surface either. How you handle it really depends on how horrific you want it to play more than book keeping I think.

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament;579797Lame.

You can have my level-draining undead when you pry them from my cold, dead, fingers.  Or something like that...

Seconded.