OK. I'll admit. Reading DeadDM here makes me think there's hope for him still. I'm back to a wait and see position as far as he's concerned.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;575526We've had D&D books in my house as long as I can remember.  I started playing 'for real' with my older brother.  He was born in 1977 and I was born in 1979, so this was probably early- to mid-eighties.  My older brother is significantly more intelligent than I am, and he was the DM.  He made an effort to generally follow the rules, and he only occasionally was a dick.  We also played Orc Wars (a free game included in Dragon magazine) quite a lot.  

I have a lot of typical 1st edition memories, like rolling a character and finding the only thing I was qualified to do was be a Fighter.  I once had a character with psionics.  When he was eating my characters foot I was able to use telekinesis to shove my boot down his throat and choke him to death.  

All the games were set in Mystara, so that was the first setting I was exposed to.  

Beginning in junior high, I started playing 2nd edition.  Let's say 1992?  I ran some games as a DM, some of my friends ran some games, too.  The longest running DM was a friend of mine who is also much smarter than I am.  He scored 1600 on his SAT and went to Harvard and Yale and became a computer scientist dealing with AI, among other things.  In any case, that campaign wasn't my comprehensive experience with 2nd edition, but it was my longest experience with a single campaign.  Magic: The Gathering nearly disrupted it, which was sad.  I'd show up to play D&D and then everyone would decide to play Magic instead - I played, but didn't care for the game much.  

Edit - I'm actually pretty sure I played 2nd edition before Junior High - I know one of the people I played with was a good friend from when I was in Kindergarten, but he didn't go to the same school from 4th-6th grade, and I think we reconnected during that time.  

In 2nd edition we played with some kits.  I liked the Complete Fighters Handbook and the Complete Book of Humanoids.  I spent tons of money buying Character Sheets (they came on green paper, and it wasn't as easy to erase hit points as if you made a photocopy - but photocopies were pretty high tech at the time).  I never could afford all the supplements I wanted.  

I made tons of mistakes as a DM.  Lots of railroading and Gods enforcing alignment (but I had some immature friends who would do stupid things like cut off the head of the NPC they were supposed to be saving and rape the body), but we had fun, anyways.  I liked it better than button-mashing Street Fighter II (we never had a console more advanced than the Nintendo).  

When I graduated High School in 1997, I pretty much took a break from gaming.  In 1999, my future wife was studying abroad, so I got back into gaming with the release of 3rd edition.  I really had fun with it, but we also played some other games, like Deadlands.  When my future wife moved to Iowa in 2001, I moved out there too.  We didn't have family, and gaming was a great way to make some social connections.  It was a college town, so we really had no trouble finding lots of players - usually too many.  We did have problems with different styles of game, and trying to accommodate too many people at once.  But again, by and large, that was a good time.  

I moved to Tennessee in 2009 and I've only been doing 'real' gaming with my Iowa group since then.  We play most every week using video conferencing.  It means I never get to break my minis anymore.    But I've also played and tried to run play-by-post games online.  

I try to make sure that every character is different as far as personality goes, though there are a few similar archetypes I haven't had a chance to explore fully, but if characters have similar personalities, they tend to have very different mechanics.  For example, I've played two 'womanizing' characters.  One was a 'musketeer' character (Fighter build) while the other is a bard/cleric in a more traditional Forgotten Realms campaign.  

So I've been gaming pretty much all my life, usually some version of D&D.  I have extensive experience with prior editions, but it's all very dated.  I do have more of the books than I did when I was younger, and I do review them, refer to them, and treasure them, but I wouldn't want to run it; or particularly eager to play in it.  I really like some of the customization of 3.x; I just wish the implementation had been a little better for some of the stuff.

Just wanted to say that in my experience, High IQ does not equal Good Player, or Good GM.   It seems pretty random to me.

All things being equal, Intelligence is a plus, generally.

Quote from: Bill;575760Just wanted to say that in my experience, High IQ does not equal Good Player, or Good GM.   It seems pretty random to me.

All things being equal, Intelligence is a plus, generally.

Intelligence, AND Empathy/Awareness.

Quote from: Benoist;575762Intelligence, AND Empathy/Awareness.

I also have a theory that being a good dm LOOKS fairly easy, but takes a bit of practice for most people.

Using myself as an example, I took about two years to get a clue that a dungeon full of monsters with each monster sorted in the dungeon levels by HD, is not a real adventure. In my defense, I was pretty young at the time.

1 HD monsters on level 1, 2HD monsters go on level 2 etc...

Fortunately a player explained to me that I was doing it wrong

Quote from: Bill;576106I also have a theory that being a good dm LOOKS fairly easy, but takes a bit of practice for most people.

Using myself as an example, I took about two years to get a clue that a dungeon full of monsters with each monster sorted in the dungeon levels by HD, is not a real adventure. In my defense, I was pretty young at the time.

1 HD monsters on level 1, 2HD monsters go on level 2 etc...

Fortunately a player explained to me that I was doing it wrong

Well, as a general guideline you weren't doing too bad. Traditionallly the dungeon level was a rough guide to difficulty. Not that rigid of course but the principle was sound.

Quote from: Bill;576106I also have a theory that being a good dm LOOKS fairly easy, but takes a bit of practice for most people.

Using myself as an example, I took about two years to get a clue that a dungeon full of monsters with each monster sorted in the dungeon levels by HD, is not a real adventure. In my defense, I was pretty young at the time.

1 HD monsters on level 1, 2HD monsters go on level 2 etc...

Fortunately a player explained to me that I was doing it wrong

This came in relatively early for me. And then, much, much later, I realized that modules, and preps of dungeons and the like, are actually not adventures, that the "adventure" is the actual stuff that happens at the game table when the module comes in contact with a live group of players and their characters, and that basically freed me from all the storywank associated with modules when you construe them as some sorts of "scripts" of a pre-determined nature.

As for your actual point, I think I agree, that good GMing comes with practice, in any case, and not just "thinking about GMing and asking people online for advice". You just learn by doing and making mistakes, and the lessons will be different for everyone. There's no question about it.

Now that said, I think we have a tendency today to consider GMing harder than it actually is and was for us when we started role playing. I started playing with AD&D First Ed. Started running games at 11 with the Dark Eye RPG and Red Box D&D. I introduced a few friends to the game as I learned. One of them picked up Star Wars d6. Another picked up Rolemaster of all things. Around the same time I transitioned to Stormbringer, Hawkmoon and CoC. And everything went without a scratch. The pal who started running his first games with Rolemaster in particular had no problem at all, ran some of the best games in those years, introduced his own little brother to RPGs using Rolemaster as well, and running games for us, allowed us to meet other kids that later became my regular Vampire group. That's about 7-8 kids introduced to RPGs via Rolemaster, without counting the second-third gens of gamers introduced afterwards by these people, of course.

On an internet discussion if you asked what best game would introduce 12-year-old children to RPGs and you said "Rolemaster!" I guarantee that people would look at their computer screen wondering if you're insane. Yet, I have seen in action and there wasn't a single issue.

What's the lesson to that? That the way we perceive what's "easy" and how we consider what children can handle and what they can't is really skewed in the first place. The first real element of success here is EXCITEMENT. It's being excited at the idea of playing. If the kids are jumping up and down at the idea of playing the game, whatever game you have in mind, they'll adapt very fast, and learn just as quickly.

Quote from: Benoist;576201This came in relatively early for me. And then, much, much later, I realized that modules, and preps of dungeons and the like, are actually not adventures, that the "adventure" is the actual stuff that happens at the game table when the module comes in contact with a live group of players and their characters, and that basically freed me from all the storywank associated with modules when you construe them as some sorts of "scripts" of a pre-determined nature.

As for your actual point, I think I agree, that good GMing comes with practice, in any case, and not just "thinking about GMing and asking people online for advice". You just learn by doing and making mistakes, and the lessons will be different for everyone. There's no question about it.

Now that said, I think we have a tendency today to consider GMing harder than it actually is and was for us when we started role playing. I started playing with AD&D First Ed. Started running games at 11 with the Dark Eye RPG and Red Box D&D. I introduced a few friends to the game as I learned. One of them picked up Star Wars d6. Another picked up Rolemaster of all things. Around the same time I transitioned to Stormbringer, Hawkmoon and CoC. And everything went without a scratch. The pal who started running his first games with Rolemaster in particular had no problem at all, ran some of the best games in those years, introduced his own little brother to RPGs using Rolemaster as well, and running games for us, allowed us to meet other kids that later became my regular Vampire group. That's about 7-8 kids introduced to RPGs via Rolemaster, without counting the second-third gens of gamers introduced afterwards by these people, of course.

On an internet discussion if you asked what best game would introduce 12-year-old children to RPGs and you said "Rolemaster!" I guarantee that people would look at their computer screen wondering if you're insane. Yet, I have seen in action and there wasn't a single issue.

What's the lesson to that? That the way we perceive what's "easy" and how we consider what children can handle and what they can't is really skewed in the first place. The first real element of success here is EXCITEMENT. It's being excited at the idea of playing. If the kids are jumping up and down at the idea of playing the game, whatever game you have in mind, they'll adapt very fast, and learn just as quickly.

Rolemaster for new rpgers! I would have guessed that would be tough.

It helps when at least one person at the table has familiarity with the game.

Dark Eye! I know someone that has a copy, and I forgot to grab it! Curious about that game.

Quote from: Bill;576210It helps when at least one person at the table has familiarity with the game.

None of us had familiarity with the game at the time, that's the beauty of it. And we didn't have problems playing it. We just figured things out as we went, and it didn't take that long when I think back about it. Just a couple sessions really, all things considered. We were 12-13 at the time.

Quote from: Bill;576210Dark Eye! I know someone that has a copy, and I forgot to grab it! Curious about that game.

Well the Dark Eye, L'Oeil Noir in French, Das Schwarze Auge in the original language, was a German competitor to the introductory boxed sets like Mentzer D&D and the like. At the time it was much different than the Dark Eye RPG that got printed in English in the 2000s (which I also have here). I'm a Dark Eye Grognard, certainly.

Quote from: Benoist;576217None of us had familiarity with the game at the time, that's the beauty of it. And we didn't have problems playing it. We just figured things out as we went, and it didn't take that long when I think back about it. Just a couple sessions really, all things considered. We were 12-13 at the time.



Well the Dark Eye, L'Oeil Noir in French, Das Schwarze Auge in the original language, was a German competitor to the introductory boxed sets like Mentzer D&D and the like. At the time it was much different than the Dark Eye RPG that got printed in English in the 2000s (which I also have here). I'm a Dark Eye Grognard, certainly.

My exposure to Dark Eye was from computer games that actually used the pen and paper mechanics. Might be too crunchy for me, but I have wanted to take a look. No idea which version I will get my hands on.

The boxed set of "Initiation au Jeu d'Aventure" was about as crunchy as Mentzer D&D Red Box was. It had basic rules to play fighters, magicians, elves, dwarves, sorceress, adventurer (a generic non-class everything average default of sorts) and ... it escapes me right now. I don't have the boxed set right next to me at this moment. In any case, the second boxed set, "Règles Avancées au Jeu d'Aventure", expended greatly on those rules, adding maneuvers where there only were Attack and Parry rolls in the base rules, adding classes like the Cavalier and a buttload of others, and so on. The Maîtres d'Armes boxed sets (there were two of those IIRC) expended even further on these options, in such a way that if you used all the corpus of rules available throughout the supplements run, you could end up with a very crunchy game indeed.

I'm a fan of the basic boxed set myself. These rules work well, and I don't need (most of) the complication of later rules. Add in Havena for good measure (which was yet another boxed set describing a port of Aventuria, what Pavis was to RuneQuest or Ptolus to 3rd ed rules, basically), and you got enough material to game for years.

I just wanted to post to remind the person collecting all of this for Grognards.txt to properly format it so i can maybe (probably not) read it later.

Quote from: kregmosier;577657I just wanted to post to remind the person collecting all of this for Grognards.txt to properly format it so i can maybe (probably not) read it later.

Mate, even those cunts have better things to do. Well, perhaps bar Corley. He has a boner of hate.

Quote from: Benoist;576201Now that said, I think we have a tendency today to consider GMing harder than it actually is and was for us when we started role playing. I started playing with AD&D First Ed. Started running games at 11 with the Dark Eye RPG and Red Box D&D. I introduced a few friends to the game as I learned. One of them picked up Star Wars d6. Another picked up Rolemaster of all things. Around the same time I transitioned to Stormbringer, Hawkmoon and CoC. And everything went without a scratch. The pal who started running his first games with Rolemaster in particular had no problem at all, ran some of the best games in those years, introduced his own little brother to RPGs using Rolemaster as well, and running games for us, allowed us to meet other kids that later became my regular Vampire group. That's about 7-8 kids introduced to RPGs via Rolemaster, without counting the second-third gens of gamers introduced afterwards by these people, of course.

On an internet discussion if you asked what best game would introduce 12-year-old children to RPGs and you said "Rolemaster!" I guarantee that people would look at their computer screen wondering if you're insane. Yet, I have seen in action and there wasn't a single issue.

Though I'm loath to comment in one of these threads that have been about of late, I enjoyed your stories about Rolemaster and Das Schwarze Auge Benoist.

It seems that all the thunderdome thread have imploded mostly due to people from this form ragequting.

What surprises me is that people here didn't know what sort of tactics the TGD folks would employ in advance. They seem intuitively obvious to me.

If the thunderdome is no longer and option then I don't think Kaelik, MGuy, or myself can "prove" anything. If we only talk rules then you call us names and acuse us of white room wanking. If we bring up anacdotes they are dismissed as examples of a bad DM. If we try to simulate play as best we can then one of you flips the table before we can reach a conclusion.

The only thing I've learnd here is to never game with grognards regarless of edition, and that older editions are not for me.

Quote from: Lord Mistborn;577815It seems that all the thunderdome thread have imploded mostly due to people from this form ragequting.

What surprises me is that people here didn't know what sort of tactics the TGD folks would employ in advance. They seem intuitively obvious to me.

If the thunderdome is no longer and option then I don't think Kaelik, MGuy, or myself can "prove" anything. If we only talk rules then you call us names and acuse us of white room wanking. If we bring up anacdotes they are dismissed as examples of a bad DM. If we try to simulate play as best we can then one of you flips the table before we can reach a conclusion.

The only thing I've learnd here is to never game with grognards regarless of edition, and that older editions are not for me.

C'est la vie