Quote from: chaosvoyager;567729Here's a thought: The reason RPGs have an intro to tell people what they are is because they are so complicated and involved that it takes a bothersome amount of time and effort to figure out what they are simply by reading the rules and/or playing.

THAT'S the problem.

Unlike, say, football or baseball.

I will concede that perhaps fewer people are familiar with RPGs than I claim, but I still assert there are more than 'What is an RPG' supporters consider.

Quote from: StormBringer;567726And when did you first pick up Space 1889?

1991ish? Yes, at the time I had heard of D&D. It was some board game about fantasy and stuff that was all dangerous and things. I was playing Rogue Trader for a while by then.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;5678291991ish? Yes, at the time I had heard of D&D. It was some board game about fantasy and stuff that was all dangerous and things. I was playing Rogue Trader for a while by then.

That's what I mean.  Even in '91, RPGs weren't exactly well known to most, but they were hardly an exclusive club .  Two decades later, I think a decent number of people - even if they aren't geeks - have at least a vague idea what RPGs entail.  Explaining the specifics of a game should fill in the gaps well enough.

Besides, very few people wander into a hobby store and impulse buy a rulebook without having a grasp of what it's about.  Sure, there is the occasional well meaning parent that picks them up for their kids without knowing if they are interested or not; but even added together, those are very rare cases.  In the vast majority of cases, I would guess, people are introduced by current players.

@ chaosvoyager I still see you're going on about cowboys and Indians and playing houses.
Well when you have something relevant to say I'll make an effort to answer properly.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;567737Unlike, say, football or baseball.

Actually, Football and Baseball are quite similar in complexity to RPGs, and even inspire a more extreme form of tribalism.

Still, I'm never asked about WHAT Football or Baseball ARE, only HOW THEY ARE PLAYED.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;567880Actually, Football and Baseball are quite similar in complexity to RPGs, and even inspire a more extreme form of tribalism.

Still, I'm never asked about WHAT Football or Baseball ARE, only HOW THEY ARE PLAYED.

Um, you don't have geeky kids or cousins, do you?

Quote from: chaosvoyager;567880Actually, Football and Baseball are quite similar in complexity to RPGs, and even inspire a more extreme form of tribalism.

Still, I'm never asked about WHAT Football or Baseball ARE, only HOW THEY ARE PLAYED.

Since we're talking about football, this entire discussion actually reminds me of John Madden: I've lost count of the number of football fans who say they hate John Madden because half the stuff he says is "obvious".

That's because John Madden was extremely effective in making the game more accessible to people unfamiliar with it. Sure, it's "obvious" to the jaded football fan of 30 years. But whenever I had a girlfriend I was trying to get to watch football with me, I would always try to make sure the first few games they watched had John Madden doing the commentary.

The same people who rag on John Madden for commenting on the "obvious" stuff are the exact same people ragging on RPGs for trying to be accessible to new players.

This is relevant.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;568154The same people who rag on John Madden for commenting on the "obvious" stuff are the exact same people ragging on RPGs for trying to be accessible to new players.

As someone who has had a LOT of success introducing new players to RPGs (in much the same way as the cartoon you link to), I still say that telling them how to play, and like Madden, explaining to them what they just saw/did, is much more useful than any intro to RPGs I've ever read, almost all of which reference other things, like playing pretend or old time radio plays, which the reader STILL has to be familiar with to gain anything useful from.

Are RPGs theater? Because that's a prevalent example, and yet most roleplayers say it isn't theater. Are RPGs stories like you read in books? Even more people are familiar with that, but pretty much everyone here will say they're NOTHING like RPGs, and then go bugnuts crazy.

If you break it down and try to explain what an RPG is, without any supporting examples of similar hobbies or activities, what you end up with is very close to telling people how to play in the first place. And considering that many RPGs have trouble simply doing the latter, I'd rather writers focus on that.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;568154This is relevant.

Even that cartoon you reference features someone showing someone how something works, not telling them what it is. That usually gets an idea across far more effectively, and it gives the student more room to make up their own mind about the subject at hand.

Right now? In this day and age?

Unless:
a) your name is "Hasbro"
b) you are spending at least $50000 in publicity or investing at least $200000 to get your book into Walmart

There's no fucking point whatsoever in doing a "What is roleplaying" section. Its the most idiotic piece of filler in any RPG book and usually born out of a delusional or narcissistic notion on the part of the author that somehow people will find his book who have never actually played a game before and he'll be the one to introduce them to the wonders of the hobby.

That won't happen.  D&D (maybe Pathfinder) can introduce people to the wonders of the hobby.  You? Your book will be bought by 45-65 year old guys with excessive facial hair who have been playing the game at least since Boy George was considered the hottest young musician.

Its possible a newbie will play your game, if you're lucky and someone else is doing their job, but they will have it explained to them by the experienced gamer who actually bought your book first and brought the newb into the hobby.

The best "what is roleplaying" section I could have is to have excellent GMs running my games.  Aside from that, I'm not going to waste 5 pages of space that could be full of Utter Awesome on the offhand chance that somehow somewhere some random dude will find the book completely out of the blue and has been living in such a hole the last 30 years that he not only can't suss out what an RPG is but lacks any ability to just look it up on the internet himself.  That fucker DESERVES to not understand, if he's really that dim.

RPGPundit

Quote from: chaosvoyager;568190As someone who has had a LOT of success introducing new players to RPGs (in much the same way as the cartoon you link to), I still say that telling them how to play, and like Madden, explaining to them what they just saw/did, is much more useful than any intro to RPGs I've ever read, almost all of which reference other things, like playing pretend or old time radio plays, which the reader STILL has to be familiar with to gain anything useful from.

I just can't buy into this quixotic quest to prove that metaphors aren't a useful form of communication.

Quote from: RPGPundit;568460That won't happen.  D&D (maybe Pathfinder) can introduce people to the wonders of the hobby.  You? Your book will be bought by 45-65 year old guys with excessive facial hair who have been playing the game at least since Boy George was considered the hottest young musician.

Its possible a newbie will play your game, if you're lucky and someone else is doing their job, but they will have it explained to them by the experienced gamer who actually bought your book first and brought the newb into the hobby.

All of my data shows otherwise.  So unless you can show some data that supports your position, I can only go by my own customer base and figures.  Which are about the opposite of what you have said above.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;568604I just can't buy into this quixotic quest to prove that metaphors aren't a useful form of communication.

I'm not doing this and you know it.

The value of metaphors as a communications tool depends on how familiar the reader is with the subject matter. And being too familiar with the subject in question can be much worse than just having trivial knowledge of it, because there's stronger carry over.

Should I be telling people what RPGs are using sports metaphors? What kind of audience would I get? What kind of concepts would the readers carry over from sports into RPGing?

Count me in as one of those people who thinks every book is someone's first and that the section should be there. It is also usually only a page or less so I'm not seeing where omitting it is a big help to page counts, etc.

I find the claims of "everyone knows what roleplaying games are" to be utterly bizarre and like born out of not having much interaction with people in other social circles.

The term "roleplaying" can elicit thoughts of video games, therapy methods, intimate activities between fetishists, or nothing at all by most of the population of the USA, much less the world.

Sure, many people in their 30s and 40s might remember the name "Dungeons & Dragons". I suppose some former parents now in their 60's or 70's might remember, but they might not (moral panics tend to be forgotten quickly once the world moves on to a new one); and they aren't likely to be starting up playing RPGs now either.

There is, of course, a vast amount of the population that are neither children of the 80's nor parents of them. People in their teens and 20s weren't around for the haydays of the 1980s, for example.

Even within the people in their 30s and 40s, their knowledge primarily extends to "I vaguely remember hearing about some nerdy game called Dungeons and Dragons - something to do with dressing up or devil worship or something..." or "I saw a D&D cartoon once..." or at best "I sort of remember playing D&D once but it was kind of weird and I didn't really understand it..."

I think the last example is far more common than some people realize - Yes, a lot of people might be first shown RPGs by someone else (as I was), but not everyone really understands exactly what it was they were doing (I didn't really "get" D&D, much less other RPGs, until much later). Not everyone is that great of teacher or really explains how the games actually work, and not everyone remembers how games work that well if they are experiencing something new and/or focused on socializing.

This isn't a phenomena unique to RPGs either - just last Friday I had a boardgame night with some friends who just bought Tsuro (one of the simplest games to learn short of Candyland) because they played it once and liked it. But we still spent 15 mins watching a Will Wheaton video on YouTube explaining it because they didn't really remember it well and were confused.

Or back in the 80's, when my parents got together with their friends and played Clue. They were utterly perplexed by it (I was slightly disappointed when we bought our own copy later and discovered that it is a much simpler game than I was led to believe).

It's worth noting as well that the cost in terms of space is pretty tiny - we're talking, what, a page at most explaining what an RPG is. It's not like we're talking about some massive chapter of stuff. It's a tiny percentage of your page count that most people will just safely ignore but about three people will absolutely treasure. I have too much respect for my potential customers to not bother explaining things to them.