Quote from: Silverlion;567410How many new players does the game alone bring in? How many have you seen brought in? Most of those I've seen brought in were either surges in the 80's and 90's (White Wolf), and many of them were brought in by others, not the the writing in the games themselves. It masses into a lot of dead trees in the long wrong, or wasted bits in the e-forms. Its a waste of space for most people, which could be better used by play aids.

Exactly.  Everyone knows what a role-playing game is by now.  The specifics of using books and dice are different than on a computer or console, but it's not some bizarre idea anymore.  New gamers are brought in by current gamers*, and they already know what they are doing.  In 1980, describing what RPGs are was a good idea.  But three decades later, we've won; people know what we do and generally how to do it.

Now, using the space to talk about what that particular RPG does is brilliant.  It gives novices and veterans alike a good idea of what to expect, which is far, far more useful than the 35 hojillionth iteration of "What is an RPG?".


* cue stories of how people started playing by themselves.  Hint:  the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'

Quote from: danskmacabre;567162Based on my experience, most people have NOT played an RPG ever in their lives (well tabletop RPGs anyway).

Really, then why does almost every 'what is an RPG' section start with referring to things like playing Cowboys & Indians as a child? Roleplaying is not a unique behavior. In fact, it is so ununique that the kids who don't exhibit it are often singled out as having issues.

And yes, not many people have played a tabletop RPG. That's the point, and why I said the things new players are most confused by are the elements specific to that, like dice.

Quote from: danskmacabre;567162Hmmm certainly when I have introduced RPGs to newbies, I have to start from scratch what an RPG is.  They almost always assume it's just basically a boardgame like monopoly, but with a fantasy flavor or something.
Actually I guess the initial perception is it's something like the "Talisman" boardgame.

Some of the best roleplaying I've ever done has been in Talisman

The biggest difference between Talisman and a Traditional RPG is that there's no GM. And the GM bit is one of the biggest reasons RPGs are not more popular, both because it's unusual, and because it requires more complexity.

So let players make that assumption. If the game is well designed, they'll adjust that assumption after reading how it works. If it turns out it wasn't what they were looking for when they bought it, they can return it. Seriously, how many D&D players were brought into the fold by getting something D&D related and having no idea what it was? I started with the Monster Manual, and didn't even know there were two completely different kinds of D&D until later.

Quote from: danskmacabre;567162Because RPGs are really unlike other types of games (board games, cards games) they need to be explained from the ground up.

Our opinions differ. In fact, the more I play all sorts of games, the more I find them similar.

Quote from: danskmacabre;567186Why is is such a Drama?  can't people just turn the pages and carry on as normal?

Page count is costly. Wasted words are poor design.

Quote from: danskmacabre;567186RPGs are a niche hobby to the extreme and publishers should make the core rules of a product as noob friendly as possible

More people play RPGs now than ever before. It's just that it's not the same game now.

@ Chaosvoyager, I'm not going to answer all your points in detail as you have gone waaaay beyond the scope of the discussion, which was Tabletop RPGs not Cowboys and Indians as an RPG.
Most people donot know what RPGs are in terms of what were talking about. Talisman is not an RPG, it's a board game with some RPG elements.

So unless you can keep this conversation in context I will stop here.

Quote from: StormBringer;567420Exactly.  Everyone knows what a role-playing game is by now.

Do they? really? not in my experience..

QuoteThe specifics of using books and dice are different than on a computer or console, but it's not some bizarre idea anymore.  New gamers are brought in by current gamers*, and they already know what they are doing.  In 1980, describing what RPGs are was a good idea.  But three decades later, we've won; people know what we do and generally how to do it.

Computer RPGs are not the same and people don't necessarily make the connection between computer RPGs and Tableotp RPGs.
for that matter a lot of people don't play computer games. Within your social circles perhaps, but there are OTHER groups of people out there too.
I could mention Skyrim, Baldur's gate, Neverwinter nights to many people and they'd have no idea what I'm talking about.
Most people WILL however know about Super mario....
I'm sure many new gamers ARE brought in by current gamers, but are you saying that ALL are?  I doubt that very much.
You seem to have a very narrow band of perception about this.

QuoteNow, using the space to talk about what that particular RPG does is brilliant.  It gives novices and veterans alike a good idea of what to expect, which is far, far more useful than the 35 hojillionth iteration of "What is an RPG?".

They can just put that in too (and may well do for all I know)..  it's not going to take up much space..

Quote from: StormBringer;567420Exactly.  Everyone knows what a role-playing game is by now.  The specifics of using books and dice are different than on a computer or console, but it's not some bizarre idea anymore.  New gamers are brought in by current gamers*, and they already know what they are doing.  In 1980, describing what RPGs are was a good idea.  But three decades later, we've won; people know what we do and generally how to do it.

Now, using the space to talk about what that particular RPG does is brilliant.  It gives novices and veterans alike a good idea of what to expect, which is far, far more useful than the 35 hojillionth iteration of "What is an RPG?".


* cue stories of how people started playing by themselves.  Hint:  the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'

Trust me, not everyone knows what an RPG is.  Or if they do, they think you're talking about Halo.  (Real exchange:  "No, not a FPS, but an RPG."  "Who gives a fuck if I get to kill things?")

Remember, just because the 1970s/80s geeks grew up and had kids doesn't mean that everyone didn't.  All of the people who despised RPGs and Nerds and everything that RPGs represented grew up and had kids of their own, and fed them all of their own stereotypical opinions about such "nerdy" and "unmanly" or "ew gross!" activities.

I would just like to say when I released Compact Heroes, even though I had a blurb about what an RPG is like, I received several emails from people who had never played an RPG before and had a lot of questions about really basic stuff we all take for granted.

I know this is purely anecdotal, but I think it would be a mistake to assume everyone knows what an RPG is already, or that your game isn't bringing in new people.  Having that blurb there is more important to the people who need it than it is for those very few who get upset by it rather than just turning the page.

And no, in the context of the entire rpg, having 1 page is insignificant cost wise.

Quote from: chaosvoyager;567160Yet despite this most people have played an RPG at some point in their lives.

I think you may have a ridiculously broad definition of what a RPG is.

Quote from: StormBringer;567420* cue stories of how people started playing by themselves.  Hint:  the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'

So, I would have been plain shit out of luck if Space 1889 had skipped it. I had no idea (or just a vague one) what an RPG was when I picked it up and had nobody to inform me otherwise. It may be an anecdote but it sure as hell matters to me.

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;567672So, I would have been plain shit out of luck if Space 1889 had skipped it. I had no idea (or just a vague one) what an RPG was when I picked it up and had nobody to inform me otherwise. It may be an anecdote but it sure as hell matters to me.

And when did you first pick up Space 1889?

Quote from: StormBringer;567726And when did you first pick up Space 1889?

1890.

Quote from: danskmacabre;567556@ Chaosvoyager, I'm not going to answer all your points in detail as you have gone waaaay beyond the scope of the discussion, which was Tabletop RPGs not Cowboys and Indians as an RPG.

And yet that's EXACTLY what most introductions to what an RPG is refer to.

Have you ever actually READ a 'What is an RPG' section? Because it doesn't sound like you have.

Quote from: danskmacabre;567556Most people donot know what RPGs are in terms of what were talking about. Talisman is not an RPG, it's a board game with some RPG elements.

It doesn't matter, because new players will engage with the similarities and adapt with the differences, and in the end understand the game they're playing far better than if they read some silly introduction.

One thing that drives me up a wall about geek culture is that they require VERY specific definitions for things. Most people however don't NEED to know what an RPG is in order to start playing one. Just tell a person how to play a game, and they'll be able to figure out the rest.

Here's a thought: The reason RPGs have an intro to tell people what they are is because they are so complicated and involved that it takes a bothersome amount of time and effort to figure out what they are simply by reading the rules and/or playing.

THAT'S the problem.

Quote from: jeff37923;567592I think you may have a ridiculously broad definition of what a RPG is.

Playing a character or role and making decisions based on that persona's point of view.

Kids play house, play doctor, play high tea party, play with dolls and action figures all the time. If anything this is natural, and modern society specifically conditions us to grow OUT of it.

Quote from: One Horse Town;5677281890.

Yes, quite precocious old chap!  Shall we pop off for a spot of tea and discuss the matter?

Not on your nelly.

Tut, tut.  Well, I must be off, then.  I believe your overcoat is in the drawing room, I trust you can see yourself out...

'cor blimey, Mary Poppins, it's a real pea souper.