Quote from: game.monkey;567221Ooops, missed this bit!

Yeah, the game should emulate Lovecraft, BRP isn't brilliant at that.  The characters in his stories don't often fail library use or miss important clues due to poor skills, they tend to succceed at all that kind of stuff.  The building of some tension in the stories also relies on things happening when dramatically important, not having strict dog positioning rules - the hounds turn up when its scary - from a roleplaying tension point of view, when players screw up a roll for example.

The guys who have written the changes have clearly stated they love the game and are trying to smooth down the rough edges.  Its not change for the sake of it, or a having new stuff because its cooler.  Its upadting an out of date system, because they love it and want the game to be better.

As mentioned previously, just because the game is old, that doesn't mean its mechanically good.  Lots of Keepers at conventions blatantly ignore most of the rules and do what they want anyway, so its hard to see what the hoo-hah is about regardless.

If this is a problem for you then trail of cthulu already offers a mechanical solution. I guess my issue with these sorts of solutions is I want the players to be able to fail because of poor dice rolls. That is what makes it different from a short story or novel to me. so I don't reall see it as a problem I need a solution for. For me when I design an investigation, I account for the possibility of players missing the vital clues.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with the gumshoe approach. i have run it and the game definitely does what it set out to do. But the decision to have or not have these sorts of mechanics drastically impacts gameplay and I think this may end up offering a style of play less in line with what classic CoC players expect or desire. So for me it isn't that these mechanics are bad on their own, it is that they are trying to fit mechanics to a game that are not a good match ImO (at least for much of the existing audience).

Quote from: jcfiala;567218As much as I like Chaosium's general output and some of the ideas put forth for 7th edition, I've got to disagree with you here - Nephelim was a poor RPG design, because it was a game that didn't tell you what the heck you were going to do with it. It really reeked of trying to make another White Wolf game with their house system and not making it something someone would want to play.

Fair enough.  I forgot about Nephelim.  Indeed, I know absolutely nothing about the game, except that it was published by Chaosium at some point.

Elfquest probably was a bit of a dud as well.

But neither of those games were the 'core' of Chaosium's RPG work.

Quote from: Akrasia;567215Weird.

My extraordinarily limited experience is not reflective of broader reality.

I don't have a limited experience.  Sure if I'd been playing with the same 6 guys since middle school in 76 you would have a point.   I haven't though.

Hell I've seen more people actually playing Aftermath then I have ever seen playing CoC.

Quote from: Sommerjon;567265I don't have a limited experience.  Sure if I'd been playing with the same 6 guys since middle school in 76 you would have a point.   I haven't though.

Hell I've seen more people actually playing Aftermath then I have ever seen playing CoC.

Wow, your personal, idiosyncratic experience of playing with more than 6 guys is really convincing!  Your anecdotal evidence clearly demonstrates that more people play Aftermath than CoC.

Keep digging that hole...

:rolleyes:

Quote from: Sommerjon;567265Hell I've seen more people actually playing Aftermath then I have ever seen playing CoC.

OTOH I've never seen anyone play Aftermath, whereas CoC is beloved of pretty much every roleplayer I've ever met.

What does this reveal? Only that the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'.

Quote from: game.monkey;567225There's got to be some trust between GM and players.  If the players think the GM might just decide to kill them on a whim, you're going to struggle to bring any tension or that slim hope of survival, because they know whatever they do doesn't make any difference.  If they've got the illusion of some control, then they're going to be more bought in, and if they know by pushing its not GM Pundit being mean like usual, the frickin' rulebook says they should get screwed, and its their choice to do it anyway, then that adds a whole different aspect to the roll.

Sure players should get some security.  You read loads of Cthulhu tomes and you should lose sanity and go bonkers.  You choose not to read the tomes, your entitled not to lose as much sanity.  Your character gets in a fight with savage dogs and he might get mauled.  He hides up a tree and lets everyone else deal with them, he's probably not going to take the same damage.

If player choices don't make a difference - or importantly their perception is that they're not making a difference - you lose their trust and enjoyment of the game.  In our overwrought example the players are none the wiser about how many dogs are coming, or from where, so as a Keeper you can still say whatever you want about the outcome.  As long as the players are feeling like what they're doing matters, they're more invested in the game.

Characters in Cthulhu should feel helpless and insignificant - players should feel like they've got choices - even if they're unpleasant ones!

So show me on the Cthulhu Plush where the bad Keeper touched you? :rolleyes:
Seriously, this is crap.  Not that players need choices or that trust should exist, but that you need special mechanics to give players choices and that trust can be given through rules.  Complete.Total.Crap.Full.Stop.  New School design at it's wrongheaded worst.

Quote from: CRKrueger;567281So show me on the Cthulhu Plush where the bad Keeper touched you? :rolleyes:
Seriously, this is crap.  Not that players need choices or that trust should exist, but that you need special mechanics to give players choices and that trust can be given through rules.  Complete.Total.Crap.Full.Stop.  New School design at it's wrongheaded worst.

Totally this. Not in reference to CoC in particular, but if there's one aspect of the "new school" attitude towards game design that puts me off it's the obsession with "If we could only get rid of these pesky social aspects of the game...then we'd really have something!"

If "assume a disfunctional group" is step one in your game design process, you've already failed IMHO.

Quote from: Akrasia;567228Fair enough.  I forgot about Nephelim.  Indeed, I know absolutely nothing about the game, except that it was published by Chaosium at some point.

Elfquest probably was a bit of a dud as well.

But neither of those games were the 'core' of Chaosium's RPG work.

IMO, the game where Chaosium really screwed the pooch was Dragon Lords of Melnibone.  (Also outside their core area, of course.)

Quote from: jcfiala;567218As much as I like Chaosium's general output and some of the ideas put forth for 7th edition, I've got to disagree with you here - Nephelim was a poor RPG design, because it was a game that didn't tell you what the heck you were going to do with it. It really reeked of trying to make another White Wolf game with their house system and not making it something someone would want to play.

I am not convinced that Nephelim's design was poor, rather the translation from the original French wasn't the best...  And quite a bit of useful stuff was left out. Like, um how to actually play it.

As to 7th Ed - I am pretty impressed at the changes, mind you I am biased as I know Mike and Paul very well.  Both are highly experienced players and keepers - their work as part of the Kult of Keepers is legendary and Paul is the chap who came up with Gatsby - so the changes are in good hands.

Mind you it is up to Chaosium to see if they do get adopted; which I hope they will.

Rik K-M

I'm a huge fan of Call of Cthulhu, huge, but I don't quite get the super praise for their supplements. I got, I guess, 30some books for Call and they are about as hit-and-miss as supplements from any other rpg company I've seen or read. Especially the newer of the books I own are, in my oppinion, nothing special or high quality, neither when it comes to layout or writing, and I have previously whined about their lack of effort when it came to the 30th anniversary edition of Call.

That is why I'm just a little interested in this new edition - I like them to try something new - that will, hopefully, force them to not just grind out boring sourcebooks like Secrets of New York or flog Arkham county to death with more or less identical books about the same ol' small towns.

Quote from: Akrasia;567228Fair enough.  I forgot about Nephelim.  Indeed, I know absolutely nothing about the game, except that it was published by Chaosium at some point.

Elfquest probably was a bit of a dud as well.

But neither of those games were the 'core' of Chaosium's RPG work.

It's hard to say about Elfquest.  It was pretty darn popular, and did go on to have a second edition and at least one or two supplements, so I think it was selling alright.

Dragon Lords of Melniborne is a d20 misstep, but you can't throw a rock and not hit a company that tried a d20 conversion of one of their older games.

Ah, well.

Quote from: jcfiala;567218As much as I like Chaosium's general output and some of the ideas put forth for 7th edition, I've got to disagree with you here - Nephelim was a poor RPG design, because it was a game that didn't tell you what the heck you were going to do with it. It really reeked of trying to make another White Wolf game with their house system and not making it something someone would want to play.

Chaosium really screwed up on Nephilim, because it is actually a TRANSLATION of an original BRP game published by Multisim in France. It's one of the best BRP games out there, seriously. It's all about the occult, the fight against the Minor Arcana of humans trying to steal the Sapience (occult knowledge and wisdom) of the Nephilim, the research of lost artefacts and spells and knowledge throughout history, the quest for the Agartha, the state in which you will free your Pentacle (Nephilim are made of the magical energy fields of the elements, Fire, Water, Air, Earth and Moon which form a Pentacle, your heart and personality of sorts, which you then use to inhabit human -or animal- bodies) from the Fall of Atlantis and revert to the state of Kaïm.

NONE of the richness of the setting came through in the Chaosium version because the "translators"/redesigner thought the American public wouldn't understand the game and go for a more "hit Templars, get XP" paradigm. So they completely rebuilt the background on their version of the "American continent" and the result was CRAPTASTIC.

Fucking idiots.

Quote from: Benoist;567335NONE of the richness of the setting came through in the Chaosium version because the "translators"/redesigner thought the American public wouldn't understand the game and go for a more "hit Templars, get XP" paradigm. So they completely rebuilt the background on their version of the "American continent" and the result was CRAPTASTIC.

Here ! Here !!

Quote from: Al Livingstone;567280OTOH I've never seen anyone play Aftermath, whereas CoC is beloved of pretty much every roleplayer I've ever met.

What does this reveal? Only that the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'.

Exactly.  anecdote isn't data, yet you are trying to push your 'anecdote data' as being "more true" than mine.

Notice what I said originally.
"Weird.

I've only seen CoC played(rarely) at Cons and the only board that mentions it with any frequency is this one."

Notice how I didn't say no one plays it.  I merely stated I've never seen people play it accept at Cons and rarely there.

Quote from: Benoist;567335Chaosium really screwed up on Nephilim, because it is actually a TRANSLATION of an original BRP game published by Multisim in France. It's one of the best BRP games out there, seriously. It's all about the occult, the fight against the Minor Arcana of humans trying to steal the Sapience (occult knowledge and wisdom) of the Nephilim, the research of lost artefacts and spells and knowledge throughout history, the quest for the Agartha, the state in which you will free your Pentacle (Nephilim are made of the magical energy fields of the elements, Fire, Water, Air, Earth and Moon which form a Pentacle, your heart and personality of sorts, which you then use to inhabit human -or animal- bodies) from the Fall of Atlantis and revert to the state of Kaïm.

Huh.

That's interesting to hear - I have a copy (And one of the sourcebooks), and frankly it looks like an unplayable mess. The game you described, the french version, sounds much more fun.