Quote from: Gib;565642This is actually what traffickers in contraband often do. For instance when a buddy calls me on the phone and says, "I got a new issue of the Kirby; do you want to come over and read some comics?" he isn't talking about The Mighty Thor #135.

Pot smokers do not all have the same alignment.

Also, if alignment languages is  a sound concept, why can't I use them in real life?

I am Lawful Good. So I should get those lawful Good vibes from other LG people, right?


Anyway, I do think alignment ;languages can make some sense in dnd due to the planar cosmology.

Pot smoking? I was talking about soft drinks with real sugar.

Ohhh...Coke then.

We could approximate it to world analogies, but then we'd have to all agree on what is the standard in the world. That's just not going to happen nowadays (because we all have different alignments with different agendas, you non-Lawful Good heathens you! :mad: ). But, since the GM is the creator of the setting, they are also the ones who define the spectrum of alignments. There's some table talk of course, but it is the GM's judgment that defines how the entirety of Theosophy gets reduced to an abstract dual-axis 9 point spectrum. With that you have similar codes, symbols, and behaviors that the GM will interpret as being part of that alignment.

So we'll never be able to objectively take this out into a real world context. However we can make rough cross-culture estimations. As a crude example, when people willfully desecrate the sacred within their own culture you'd have a similar Evil or Chaotic shibboleth that crosses cultures. Someone who burns the Koran while smearing themselves with sigils in pigs blood would be recognized by someone who uses upside-down crosses and blood pentagrams in a black mass as a fellow kindred spirit. And they both wouldn't do or talk about this openly unless they wanted to look like an idiot and be ostracized by important people active in their alignment.

Like recognizing kind is something we deal with every day. Except it's so ingrained it's hard for us to recognize when we use it. Just like native speakers of a language can tell you when you're using the language wrong, but on thorough analysis can't tell you exactly why. It's hard to self-analyze from within, especially if you're not deeply familiar with anything outside to compare it to. But, being a part of something, you know it when you see it.

It's kind of magical traveling overseas and noticing how quickly druggies find like minds, or party people find kindred spirits, or straight edgers meet, or notorious gossips end up creating new cliques. We know who we are and what we like and we tend to be fast in recognizing similar desires in others. It's sorta what people in society do; we test the waters, tentatively throw out jargon towards those we suspect are kin, and then self-sort ourselves accordingly. Nothing terribly strange to understand.

Quote from: Opaopajr;565832We could approximate it to world analogies, but then we'd have to all agree on what is the standard in the world. That's just not going to happen nowadays (because we all have different alignments with different agendas, you non-Lawful Good heathens you! :mad: ). But, since the GM is the creator of the setting, they are also the ones who define the spectrum of alignments. There's some table talk of course, but it is the GM's judgment that defines how the entirety of Theosophy gets reduced to an abstract dual-axis 9 point spectrum. With that you have similar codes, symbols, and behaviors that the GM will interpret as being part of that alignment.

So we'll never be able to objectively take this out into a real world context. However we can make rough cross-culture estimations. As a crude example, when people willfully desecrate the sacred within their own culture you'd have a similar Evil or Chaotic shibboleth that crosses cultures. Someone who burns the Koran while smearing themselves with sigils in pigs blood would be recognized by someone who uses upside-down crosses and blood pentagrams in a black mass as a fellow kindred spirit. And they both wouldn't do or talk about this openly unless they wanted to look like an idiot and be ostracized by important people active in their alignment.

Like recognizing kind is something we deal with every day. Except it's so ingrained it's hard for us to recognize when we use it. Just like native speakers of a language can tell you when you're using the language wrong, but on thorough analysis can't tell you exactly why. It's hard to self-analyze from within, especially if you're not deeply familiar with anything outside to compare it to. But, being a part of something, you know it when you see it.

It's kind of magical traveling overseas and noticing how quickly druggies find like minds, or party people find kindred spirits, or straight edgers meet, or notorious gossips end up creating new cliques. We know who we are and what we like and we tend to be fast in recognizing similar desires in others. It's sorta what people in society do; we test the waters, tentatively throw out jargon towards those we suspect are kin, and then self-sort ourselves accordingly. Nothing terribly strange to understand.

+1 and re-posted because it won't fit in my sig.

Quote from: Bill;565632The real question, is why exactly two individials would have a similar way to communicate based ONLY on alignment. Not Race, not Culture, not Knowledge. They are communicating ONLY due to alignment.
How would you describe that; as in, how do they communicate?

I see that all the time in movies from the 1950s. A vagrant drifts through town and every one sizes him up. A lawful vagrant will look people in the eyes, answer questions quickly, have a honest handshake, always wash up before eating, and make a big deal about how clean healthy and friendly things are. A chaotic vagrant has shifty eyes, is mealy mouthed, doesn't care about hygene and is fixated on get rich quick schemes.
 
They don't talk theology, or political parties or race. Those things are easy to figure out logicaly. But no, they have a sort of "sixth sense" about figuring out who's gonna be worth feeding and who's gonna be trouble.
 

QuoteA Noble woman CE Drow priestess happens to stumble upon an illiterate CE Halfling thief bandit.
 
Neither has ever heard of the other race, neither culture has ever met. They have very different backgrounds.
 
Yet still they communicate in CE.

If they both speak common, then they'll quickly communicate some essential CE stuff, like "don't mess with my stuff or I'll cut you."
 
Without a shared language they'll do the same thing just by sizing each other up.
 

QuoteHmmmmm....
 
That might require some sort of Cosmology to justify; such as Gods linking mortals by alignment supernaturally.

...or you can justify it with all those studies that show that people are aligned with the American Left or Right, and those alignments are stable over time linked with observable characteristics like the much ballyhooed Rick Santorum gag reflex. link
 
TLDR: cleanliness is next to godliness.

Quote from: noisms;565610All you guys seem to be saying with the whole "it's jargon and gestures and a way of carrying yourself which communicate to the other person that you have similar beliefs" thing is that alignment languages are like a detect alignment spell but less powerful.

I think that is a very bland way of imagining the concept.

Well, I think that the only way the concept really works for me is in the terms of it being "modes of recognition".

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;566113Well, I think that the only way the concept really works for me is in the terms of it being "modes of recognition".

RPGPundit

Yeah, kinda like a detect personality or an insight skill.

Alignment language is one of those unique and weird things about old D&D, and it really only makes sense with the cosmology of old D&D.

You die, your spirit goes to the outer plane...where exactly depends on your alignment, which is a core part of you. Your alignment is your ticket to a spot on the outer planes, and it's also a ticket to a mode of communication of others that, ultimately, will go to the same place you are.

This is part of why changing alignment in old D&D was such a huge deal, causing loss of level and some other nastiness.

The whole old cosmology pit alignments in some competition with each other, based on how far apart they were.

Metagaming, this system served as a (questionable) tool to aid in role playing, and it also gave some explanation for how that chaotic evil wizard managed to get along and communicate with other chaotic evil creatures: even if they didn't share a "normal" language, they shared an alignment, and thus an alignment language, allowing some form of communication.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;565918I see that all the time in movies from the 1950s. A vagrant drifts through town and every one sizes him up. A lawful vagrant will look people in the eyes, answer questions quickly, have a honest handshake, always wash up before eating, and make a big deal about how clean healthy and friendly things are. A chaotic vagrant has shifty eyes, is mealy mouthed, doesn't care about hygene and is fixated on get rich quick schemes.
 
They don't talk theology, or political parties or race. Those things are easy to figure out logicaly. But no, they have a sort of "sixth sense" about figuring out who's gonna be worth feeding and who's gonna be trouble.
 
 
If they both speak common, then they'll quickly communicate some essential CE stuff, like "don't mess with my stuff or I'll cut you."
 
Without a shared language they'll do the same thing just by sizing each other up.
 
 
 
...or you can justify it with all those studies that show that people are aligned with the American Left or Right, and those alignments are stable over time linked with observable characteristics like the much ballyhooed Rick Santorum gag reflex. link
 
TLDR: cleanliness is next to godliness.

People know their own alignment language. (Other than assasins!)

So a neutral good person can only use this mode of communication with another ng person.
 
But poor NG person is sadly unable to communicate the same way with a Neutral, CG, or LG person.

Can't tell who is good, or neutral. only if they are ng.

Fortunately the Assasins can open a school, to teach the good how to communutate with goodness.

Quote from: Doom;566380Alignment language is one of those unique and weird things about old D&D, and it really only makes sense with the cosmology of old D&D.

You die, your spirit goes to the outer plane...where exactly depends on your alignment, which is a core part of you. Your alignment is your ticket to a spot on the outer planes, and it's also a ticket to a mode of communication of others that, ultimately, will go to the same place you are.

Which leads me to another idea altogether: What if on each of the outer planes they speak the Alignment Language of that plane?

RPGPundit

I don't think there's a "what if" there...of course they do. If you're LN, then you speak the alignment language of LN.

Everyone native to the LN plane (and is LN, although that should be redundant) would of course speak this language.

I'm really hard pressed to think of any representation of the afterlife where language is a problem of like-minded folk.

Alignment languages work if they are actual languages that origionate from the outer planes.

But if they are not handled as an actual language that is learned like any other, the logic breaks down.

Quote from: Bill;567111Alignment languages work if they are actual languages that origionate from the outer planes.

But if they are not handled as an actual language that is learned like any other, the logic breaks down.

How? We already described how shibboleths work. I think it's far too easy getting hung up on the word "language" here. And calling it an Alignment Cant just sounds aesthetically silly.

It's a concept that includes everything from symbols, attitudes, jargon, possibly even discreet fashion -- all underlaid with deep meaning. We deal with similar subculture codes on a daily basis. Further, as a linguist by education, language is a very complicated concept often misunderstood and inappropriately applied.

I give full benefit of the doubt that EGG, TSR & co. simply made a gross terminology error of application, using a very loaded word when another more obscure one would've sufficed.

Quote from: Opaopajr;567402How? We already described how shibboleths work. I think it's far too easy getting hung up on the word "language" here. And calling it an Alignment Cant just sounds aesthetically silly.

It's a concept that includes everything from symbols, attitudes, jargon, possibly even discreet fashion -- all underlaid with deep meaning. We deal with similar subculture codes on a daily basis. Further, as a linguist by education, language is a very complicated concept often misunderstood and inappropriately applied.

I give full benefit of the doubt that EGG, TSR & co. simply made a gross terminology error of application, using a very loaded word when another more obscure one would've sufficed.

Here is why the logic does not work.

A NG person can not use this mode of communication with CG, LG, or N people.

The logic does not work.

No to mention none of us can use this mode of communication in real life.

Seriously, I never get secret body language communication from people based on alignment.

Based on other factors, sure. But not on alignment.

Someon angry sends a out a vibe, but you can't tell if he is 'good' or 'nuetral'

A person flirting sends out a vibe, but again, who knows if they are 'good' or evil'?

I will defend alignment languages based on dnd planar cosmology, and if they are actual languages.

But not the universal communication based only on alignment.