I find Languagegeek's description of Cosmological Memes or a "Planar Universal Conscious" if you will to be very interesting.  

Of course you actually have to accept the Cosmology of D&D and the idea of the influences of the various Outer and Inner Planes on the Prime Material.  Apparently that's beyond some people because it's not how things really work in life. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Tetsubo;565334There is a difference between code words and phrases or framing references and an actual language. And that switching alignments would somehow magically transfer that knowledge to the person. This was such a left-field idea I just could not fathom how anyone thought it should be included in the game. What purpose did it serve? It was possibly the first rule we ignored. It added nothing.

It's not an actual language, as per the description.

Switching alignments represents switching alignment 'language' as much as you feel it should in your setting. Losing your old Lawful Good alignment could mean no longer being up to date on Lawful Good canon, code words, and symbols (religions and philosophies do change over time). While a switch to Neutral Good means you are taking time to learn new shibboleths (thanks Stormbringer for using the appropriate term), so that whole level of experience it takes to start gaining actual experience in your new alignment is seen as your learning period (does anyone else remember those rules from the alignment section?).

It serves the purpose to have a hard coded GM leash on PC alignment behavior. It's just like NWPs are there to help define what your character can do *really well* -- you may be dextrous, but why should that make you a concert pianist if you've never seen a piano before, along with being a world class acrobat, legerdemain trickster, and basket weaver san pareil. Some people like tools to rein in PC potentiality to retain believability. When someone is LG they want their behavior to stay LG; so what tools do you have to ensure breaches have ramifications?

Some people like hard tools (rule mechanics), some people like soft tools (setting restraints), and some people like none and work completely on trust. And some people like all of those tools and find themselves using all three at different levels at various times. And as long as the system is flexible enough for people to tailor to their table, none of this is a real problem.

I like the tools of alignment and alignment languages myself and don't find them problematic. But then I also don't have issues worrying about class balance either. Thankfully I'm accommodated by the flexibility of older games and don't have a real worry about this. Therefore happy fun time for all.

Quote from: Tetsubo;565334There is a difference between code words and phrases or framing references and an actual language. And that switching alignments would somehow magically transfer that knowledge to the person. This was such a left-field idea I just could not fathom how anyone thought it should be included in the game. What purpose did it serve? It was possibly the first rule we ignored. It added nothing.

I never use alignment languages for anything other than planar beings like devils. And I don't really call them alignment langages.

It makes a bit more sense if you define 'lawful Evil' as the ancient language of Devilkind that has seeped into the material plane over millenia.

Quote from: Bill;565417I never use alignment languages for anything other than planar beings like devils. And I don't really call them alignment langages.

It makes a bit more sense if you define 'lawful Evil' as the ancient language of Devilkind that has seeped into the material plane over millenia.

Hmmn. That's an interesting take. I never thought of that. It also immediately gives me story ideas, that's how I know it's an interesting idea.

Quote from: Opaopajr;565378It's not an actual language, as per the description.

Switching alignments represents switching alignment 'language' as much as you feel it should in your setting. Losing your old Lawful Good alignment could mean no longer being up to date on Lawful Good canon, code words, and symbols (religions and philosophies do change over time). While a switch to Neutral Good means you are taking time to learn new shibboleths (thanks Stormbringer for using the appropriate term), so that whole level of experience it takes to start gaining actual experience in your new alignment is seen as your learning period (does anyone else remember those rules from the alignment section?).

:hatsoff:

QuoteIt serves the purpose to have a hard coded GM leash on PC alignment behavior. It's just like NWPs are there to help define what your character can do *really well* -- you may be dextrous, but why should that make you a concert pianist if you've never seen a piano before, along with being a world class acrobat, legerdemain trickster, and basket weaver san pareil. Some people like tools to rein in PC potentiality to retain believability. When someone is LG they want their behavior to stay LG; so what tools do you have to ensure breaches have ramifications?

Some people like hard tools (rule mechanics), some people like soft tools (setting restraints), and some people like none and work completely on trust. And some people like all of those tools and find themselves using all three at different levels at various times. And as long as the system is flexible enough for people to tailor to their table, none of this is a real problem.

I like the tools of alignment and alignment languages myself and don't find them problematic. But then I also don't have issues worrying about class balance either. Thankfully I'm accommodated by the flexibility of older games and don't have a real worry about this. Therefore happy fun time for all.

Excellent points all around.

All you guys seem to be saying with the whole "it's jargon and gestures and a way of carrying yourself which communicate to the other person that you have similar beliefs" thing is that alignment languages are like a detect alignment spell but less powerful.

I think that is a very bland way of imagining the concept.

Quote from: noisms;565610All you guys seem to be saying with the whole "it's jargon and gestures and a way of carrying yourself which communicate to the other person that you have similar beliefs" thing is that alignment languages are like a detect alignment spell but less powerful.

I think that is a very bland way of imagining the concept.

I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not what I am saying. I am saying that with alignment languages people could communicate. They may not be able to read Shakespeare to each other, but they could telegraph simple plans.

If you and I were in a pickle, and two armed thugs were approaching us, and I said to you, "I think we should pull a Sir Robin maneuver." I just used our Holy Grail Alignment Tongue to say we should run away.

If we were at Gencon and we saw a group of gamers get run down by a truck and we ran inside and somebody said, "What happened?!" and we said, "TPK!"
Aside from being dickheads, we would be speaking in alignment tongue...if being a gamer was an alignment.

OH! Another good analogy, and that's all these are, are pot smokers. People who smoke pot regularly can generally identify other pot smokers, and through a series of gestures, and code words can communicate the idea "Let's go to my car a smoke a joint."

Quote from: Pariah74;565617I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not what I am saying. I am saying that with alignment languages people could communicate. They may not be able to read Shakespeare to each other, but they could telegraph simple plans.

If you and I were in a pickle, and two armed thugs were approaching us, and I said to you, "I think we should pull a Sir Robin maneuver." I just used our Holy Grail Alignment Tongue to say we should run away.

If we were at Gencon and we saw a group of gamers get run down by a truck and we ran inside and somebody said, "What happened?!" and we said, "TPK!"
Aside from being dickheads, we would be speaking in alignment tongue...if being a gamer was an alignment.

Okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, that works.

Quote from: noisms;565620Okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, that works.

You may be the first person I have converted to alignment tongues. Go forth and use it to spread the gospel! lol

Quote from: Pariah74;565622You may be the first person I have converted to alignment tongues. Go forth and use it to spread the gospel! lol

The real question, is why exactly two individials would have a similar way to communicate based ONLY on alignment. Not Race, not Culture, not Knowledge. They are communicating ONLY due to alignment.
How would you describe that; as in, how do they communicate?

A Noble woman CE Drow priestess happens to stumble upon an illiterate CE Halfling thief bandit.

Neither has ever heard of the other race, neither culture has ever met. They have very different backgrounds.

Yet still they communicate in CE.

Hmmmmm....


That might require some sort of Cosmology to justify; such as Gods linking mortals by alignment supernaturally.

Quote from: Bill;565632The real question, is why exactly two individials would have a similar way to communicate based ONLY on alignment. Not Race, not Culture, not Knowledge. They are communicating ONLY due to alignment.
How would you describe that; as in, how do they communicate?

A Noble woman CE Drow priestess happens to stumble upon an illiterate CE Halfling thief bandit.

Neither has ever heard of the other race, neither culture has ever met. They have very different backgrounds.

Yet still they communicate in CE.

Hmmmmm....


That might require some sort of Cosmology to justify; such as Gods linking mortals by alignment supernaturally.

What about saying it's a resonance thing?  Each person has an alignment, and it might change, but they never have to spend time learning a new language, and you aren't able to use your alignment language anymore if yours changes, but you shouldn't forget it.

So, everyone's alignment has an 'alignment resonance' that they can communicate with using the equivalent of a 'twin speak' that transfers via their resonance to those that can hear it.  They might not understand the exact words, but they know what you mean.  And because the resonance doesn't transfer to someone who's a different alignment, if yours doesn't match, then the other person can't understand what you're trying to say.

It seems workable enough to me that I'll probably add that as my justification whenever I run a game again.

Quote from: Bill;565632The real question, is why exactly two individials would have a similar way to communicate based ONLY on alignment. Not Race, not Culture, not Knowledge. They are communicating ONLY due to alignment.
How would you describe that; as in, how do they communicate?

A Noble woman CE Drow priestess happens to stumble upon an illiterate CE Halfling thief bandit.

Neither has ever heard of the other race, neither culture has ever met. They have very different backgrounds.

Yet still they communicate in CE.

Hmmmmm....


That might require some sort of Cosmology to justify; such as Gods linking mortals by alignment supernaturally.

Again, I said that they would not be reading poetry to each other but simple ideas could be conveyed. "I'm going to attack you!" "Something over there is dangerous!" "Give me your gold and I'll let you live."

I don't see it as a formalized and structured lexicon, but rather a way of reading the intentions of like minded individuals.

And no, they don't have the same backgrounds, but they have the same philosophy on life. As somebody posted earlier, to understand alignments you need to understand how the other planes of existence influence the Prime plane. This isn't something that directly exists in our world, so I can only draw analogies.

But yes, those two beings would be able to communicate ideas through gestures. Sure, limited common language would be a problem, but that's something the GM can determine. Do we really need strict rules for it? It's something ambiguous, and seemingly meant for GMs to play with and interpret.

Quote from: Pariah74;565617I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not what I am saying. I am saying that with alignment languages people could communicate. They may not be able to read Shakespeare to each other, but they could telegraph simple plans.

If you and I were in a pickle, and two armed thugs were approaching us, and I said to you, "I think we should pull a Sir Robin maneuver." I just used our Holy Grail Alignment Tongue to say we should run away.

If we were at Gencon and we saw a group of gamers get run down by a truck and we ran inside and somebody said, "What happened?!" and we said, "TPK!"
Aside from being dickheads, we would be speaking in alignment tongue...if being a gamer was an alignment.

OH! Another good analogy, and that's all these are, are pot smokers. People who smoke pot regularly can generally identify other pot smokers, and through a series of gestures, and code words can communicate the idea "Let's go to my car a smoke a joint."

This is actually what traffickers in contraband often do. For instance when a buddy calls me on the phone and says, "I got a new issue of the Kirby; do you want to come over and read some comics?" he isn't talking about The Mighty Thor #135.

Apparently when my wife was little, and then old enough to figure it out, her uncle would come over and ask her dad if they needed to "check the furnace."

And it's alignment language because, I am guessing, your friend never sat you down and said, "Here's our code..." you just knew what he was talking about.

Likewise, my wife's uncle never said, "When I say furnace I mean reefer" He just said it with subtle tones and inflections that her father instantly knew what he meant.

Quote from: Pariah74;565665Apparently when my wife was little, and then old enough to figure it out, her uncle would come over and ask her dad if they needed to "check the furnace."

And it's alignment language because, I am guessing, your friend never sat you down and said, "Here's our code..." you just knew what he was talking about.

Likewise, my wife's uncle never said, "When I say furnace I mean reefer" He just said it with subtle tones and inflections that her father instantly knew what he meant.

Actually this particular code has an origin that involves a long ago event which combined the activity in question with sitting on the floor of a room full of long boxes and actually reading comics.