Quote from: thedungeondelver;553765When I discovered D&D my last year in grade school (1980), all the "in crowd" played.  You wanted to be seen playing.  It wasn't really a "nerd thing" until the later 80s as far as I could tell.

I'd concur with this.  When I was in grade school around 1980, I got into D&D because it was something cool that older siblings did.  In the late 70s, I'd play pretend with my friends, but we'd call it "D&D" because that was what my friend's older brother did.  I'd note that this was also the time when you saw D&D in popular culture - like the older kids playing D&D in E.T. (1982) and the D&D cartoon (1983).  

By the time these were coming out, though, D&D had already passed its peak in popularity.  It quickly became clear as a brief fad, and in later years became a niche game that was usually labeled geeky and definitely stigmatized.  

Regarding the O.P. - I'm generally down with that.  I find gaming to be very positive, and certainly endorse playing with people you like.  (Although I'm also fine to play with strangers.)  I don't consider myself a post-geek, though.

Quote from: _kent_;553754I don't understand why the Fantasy genre is not accorded the same respect as say Film Noir and If D&D had roots in Film Noir I could sell it all day long serving up Lovecraft via Raymond Chandler, Dashiell Hammett and James Ellroy.


It is often suggested that bad Fantasy novels are no worse than any bad fiction. They are worse. So called good fantasy like Game of Thrones is the equivalent of generally bad fiction and there are very few fantasy works worth reading but they are worth re-reading and re-reading to experience glorious power of imagination set free.

Paragraph B answers Paragraph A there I'm afraid.

(Don't really read fantasy fiction much any more because of that, so much dumb stuff. Tend to read a lot of fantasy-inflected stuff, though)

Quote from: _kent_;553754I don't understand why the Fantasy genre is not accorded the same respect as say Film Noir[...]

Because fantasy literature is generally either escapism or adolescent power fantasy.  Neither of these are seen as appropriate for mature adults.

Quote from: daniel_ream;553815Because fantasy literature is generally either escapism or adolescent power fantasy.  Neither of these are seen as appropriate for mature adults.

I'm mangling this badly, but I believe it was CS Lewis who said that the people who most wanted after escape were prisoners, and the people most violently opposed to it were jailers.

Quote from: _kent_;553754there are very few fantasy works worth reading but they are worth re-reading and re-reading to experience glorious power of imagination set free.

Which are these in your estimation?

Quote from: Imp;553811Paragraph B answers Paragraph A there I'm afraid.

(Don't really read fantasy fiction much any more because of that, so much dumb stuff. Tend to read a lot of fantasy-inflected stuff, though)

Quote from: CRKrueger;553839Which are these in your estimation?

Well I would rank R Chandler, D Hammett and J Ellroy with F Leiber and J Vance. Can't you just imagine Leiber and Vance writing solid noir? This is why I don't buy the idea, and argue against the perception, that Fantasy is inferior to Noir (I use the term to include the detective fiction that inspired it).

The very few writers I have greater respect for are, ER Eddison, WH Hodgson, JRR Tolkien,  CA Smith, G Wolfe and Lord Dunsany. There is nothing in noir fiction to rival these writers. Yet look at the films noir has produced, some classics of the first water here:
http://www.imdb.com/chart/filmnoir

So, in my view noir has been embraced by the mainstream despite the unequal calibre of writers at the top in both genres.

Just as I think NASA should be making science fiction films to help with budgetary issues in the face of an unsympathetic public, there are simply no classic fantasy films which would appeal to the opinion formers of film - the top critics and until they are made the genre and the game are very hard sells.

(Perhaps the Lewton/Tourneur I walked with a Zombie and Cat People are close.)

===

Just to point out again why this is relevant to the OP. A very important part of getting the best out this sociable game is attracting interesting players but I find it very difficult to breach the aversion I find to the genre and I wish I was selling noir or westerns as a game.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;553765When I discovered D&D my last year in grade school (1980), all the "in crowd" played.  You wanted to be seen playing.  It wasn't really a "nerd thing" until the later 80s as far as I could tell.

That's interesting. I started the first gaming club at my high school then, and mostly we were viewed as nerds (or with puzzlement, which was better). We really pissed off the organizers of the chess club because half of them defected to the gaming club.

What was really crazy is that some elementary schools in the district asked us to volunteer to come "teach" D&D for a few hours to the older kids - that we did, and the kids loved it. Pretty strange all things considered.

We also got asked to "consult" the police on it once. The cops knew it was a harmless game, but they also had to deal with folks who thought it was "satanic".

Great posts all around.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;553689Mostly, I no longer consider myself a "gamer" - that is, I won't just try any game (again, mostly).  This also falls under the "life's too short" (with the corollary money's too short, too) category; I have x amount of time to devote to gaming.  I can't afford to travel to cons, and the local ones suck.  So I'll stay at home and play AD&D until they take the books from my cold dead etc.

Man, I envy you.

I have a bad, bad case of "gamer ADD". I don't have a lot of time for gaming either, and I want my campaigns to be solid and long-lasting affairs, but I end up getting distracted as new games that come to my attention. I even posted about it a while back.

I really do think that good games really come alive with long-running games, but I can't help myself when it comes to this. Factor in the limited amount of time that I get to dedicate to gaming, and next thing you know you've been jumping between mini-campaigns for the last 6 years.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;553689I love AD&D.  I don't just mean "it has nice modules" or "I like the way Gary wrote the rulebooks", I love it all.  I love the rules, the aesthetics, the lot of it.  I get a big laugh out of people who decry and rail at it, because at the end of the day I still have fun with it, because of and not in spite of how it works.

I hear you. It's not even my favorite incarnation of TSR-era D&D (this honor belongs to the D&D RC) but the art, the writing, the modules... it's definitely got a charm of its own. If you're going to run one game and one game only, AD&D 1e is not by any stretch a bad choice.

I think these are all sane points of view. I definitely agree with the truism that no gaming is better than bad gaming. I do a mix of online gaming and face to face. In the face to face games, there was a bit of drama when we first started out because the DM's wife was a wacko, but she's long gone now. His new wife is much cooler. Other than that bit at the beginning, there's been no drama. We basically get along and do stuff together other than gaming, but all of us have other friends, too. I've known people whose only friends in the world were in their gaming group, and things got kind of tense sometimes because falling out over the game could wipe out a person's entire social network and vice versa.

Online, I used to game with just whoever signed up, but I've learned my lesson. I won't game with people I wouldn't invite over to my house for a game in my living room. Life's just too short to spend your leisure time hanging out with assholes.

Quote from: _kent_;553754It is often suggested that bad Fantasy novels are no worse than any bad fiction. They are worse. So called good fantasy like Game of Thrones is the equivalent of generally bad fiction and there are very few fantasy works worth reading but they are worth re-reading and re-reading to experience glorious power of imagination set free.

It saddens me that Game of Thrones is considered good, more than it saddens me that people read it. It's okay to read bad fiction, but it seems to me that one should at least have the awareness that it's fucking bad.
Your second point has driven me off to Zothique for the evening.

Quote from: Aos;553950It saddens me that Game of Thrones is considered good, more than it saddens me that people read it. It's okay to read bad fiction, but it seems to me that one should at least have the awareness that it's fucking bad.
Your second point has driven me off to Zothique for the evening.

I've never read the Game of Thrones books but of the TV show I have heard said "If these people were wearing suits this would just be The West Wing."

I like the show; it's cheap, tawdry garbage - porno, really - masquerading as this seasons The Lord of the Rings (No Books, Please), but I know that and don't expect anything better of it.

I guess if I want to read fantasy by a horny guy; I'll do the sensible thing and read Leiber.

Quote from: The Butcher;553891I have a bad, bad case of "gamer ADD". I don't have a lot of time for gaming either, and I want my campaigns to be solid and long-lasting affairs, but I end up getting distracted as new games that come to my attention. I even posted about it a while back.

I really do think that good games really come alive with long-running games, but I can't help myself when it comes to this. Factor in the limited amount of time that I get to dedicate to gaming, and next thing you know you've been jumping between mini-campaigns for the last 6 years.

A guy - a friend - with whom I have gamed for 20+ years can't commit to long-haul campaigns.  Used to be we could get a year or two out of a good run of Champions or even D20 D&D but nowadays we get two months (6-7 sessions) in to a campaign, get established and blam, he wants to change again.  We actually had a fantastic sci-fi Cthulhu thing going with space marines and the works and it just fell apart because he "got bored" with it.  I keep telling him he needs a palate cleanser of a few months out of the driver's seat playing AD&D but his comeback is always the same as mine: that's not how he wants to spend his limited gaming time, and I respect that.  So we're kind of drifted apart now, but meh whatevs.

QuoteI hear you. It's not even my favorite incarnation of TSR-era D&D (this honor belongs to the D&D RC) but the art, the writing, the modules... it's definitely got a charm of its own. If you're going to run one game and one game only, AD&D 1e is not by any stretch a bad choice.

It's what I know; nobody's going to come to the table with some "splatbook" I haven't seen before that I then have to mull over letting in to the game, I don't really have to wonder what's just around the corner in terms of rules development, etc.  AD&D is my RP comfort zone.  I love AD&D.  Sure, there's parts about it I don't care for - gotta cherry pick Unearthed Arcana, don't really want or need Oriental Adventures, Manual of the Planes or the Wilderness Survival Guide (or the Dungeoneers Survival Guide), but yeah if I was stuck on a desert island and could only have one RPG with me (amongst other crucial survival gear), it'd be AD&D, fo sho.

Quote from: Aos;553962I guess if I want to read fantasy by a horny guy; I'll do the sensible thing and read Leiber.

Oh he does get his freak on in his books, no doubt.  But yes, that's your best bet.

Quote from: Lynn;553880That's interesting. I started the first gaming club at my high school then, and mostly we were viewed as nerds (or with puzzlement, which was better). We really pissed off the organizers of the chess club because half of them defected to the gaming club.

Sigh.  I too was in the chess club.  Many of those people were crazy (alpha-nerd/listens to black sabbath and takes it seriously/you're why there's a Satanic Panic about D&D type crazy people), but yes we were dorks.

QuoteWhat was really crazy is that some elementary schools in the district asked us to volunteer to come "teach" D&D for a few hours to the older kids - that we did, and the kids loved it. Pretty strange all things considered.

I wonder if that wasn't to give you the hairy eyeball, make sure it WASN'T Tom Hanks bawling after he stabbed a homeless dude in a transit tunnel.

QuoteWe also got asked to "consult" the police on it once. The cops knew it was a harmless game, but they also had to deal with folks who thought it was "satanic".

Oof.  Well at least the cops knew it was bullshit.  I got it from my parents