Quote from: Benoist;543063The difference here is something you might have heard about called "actual play". In actual play, characters in AD&D which are out resting in their abode for weeks are not played. They are usually replaced by different player characters who adventure with the group in the meantime. When the player wants to switch back and take control of his resting character once more, either he has rested for less than a month, in which case you calculate the HP recuperation as indicated here, or he's rested more than a month, in which case he is back at full HPs. In either case, the mythical day in which a character would suddenly regain all his hit points does not happen in the game world. No dissociation.

Isn't this "How we play" not 'actual play'?

Unfortunately, yes it does, and is a clear 'dissociation'.  Day 27 the PC has regained 27 +/- constitution modifiers, but on Day 28 the PC has miraculously regained the rest no matter if it is 1 more hp or 78 more.

Quote from: Benoist;543063In the 5e case, you can recuperate all your hit points from negative/wounds HPs in 36 hours. This is not a mythical scenario, but something that might occur right there in the game, fairly regularly. If health is part of the HP abstraction in 5e there is a problem, one of a mechanic failing to represent what happens in the world (it takes more than 36 hours to recuperate from sword blows that knocked you unconscious and wounded you), hence, dissociation. UNLESS you define HPs as just being skill and fatigue, in which case I have a problem because (1) actual health is not simulated at all in this game, and (2) this is such a change from the previous baseline of the game as to make this one "not D&D". When I play D&D, I want to play "D&D". Not the game people who hate D&D would like it to be.

Verbiage for 1e
"A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors"
I would also like to point out the last sentence in the first paragraph "Thus, the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces."

Verbiage for 4e
"Hit points represent more than physical endurance. They represent your character's skill, luck, and resolve—all the factors that combine to help you stay alive in a combat situation."

The difference between the two in recovery is 1e's emphasis is 'pseudo real'(up until day 28) and 4/5e's emphasis is not 'pseudo real' and day 28 happens on day 1.

We are behind you Osama Benoist Laden! The OSR Taliban stands ready to execute your will!


(Of course, you do know that you are dealing with an idiot in Sommerjon, right? )

Quote from: Justin Alexander;543062Prove which one wrong? The one where you misuse a term that I coined and defined? Or the one where you claimed that the hit point system wasn't part of the hit point system?

Because I think you'll find that I've already proven you wrong on both of those.

(Or you would find that if you weren't illiterate.)

Me

QuoteI find it very strange with people here who have this abnormal fascination with AD&D HP recovery. Both 4e and 1e describe HP with nearly the same verbiage, yet 4e(and now 5e) is poopooed on and 1e is praised, when both are disassociated mechanics.
What is the justification that 4e is bad and 1e is 'gold standard'?
1e ignores the skill, luck and/or magical factors with hp recovery solely focusing on hp being physical damage. 4e ignores the physical damage part and focuses on skill, luck and resolve.

Verbiage for 1e
"A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors"
I would also like to point out the last sentence in the first paragraph "Thus, the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces."

Verbiage for 4e
"Hit points represent more than physical endurance. They represent your character's skill, luck, and resolve—all the factors that combine to help you stay alive in a combat situation."

I do like how in 1e hp recovery in the phb is different from the dmg and from virtually everyone here
phb
"For each day of rest, 1 hit point of damage is restored. After 30 game days have passed, hit points accrue at the rate of 5 per day thereafter."
dmg
"For each day of rest a character will regain 1 hit point, up to and including 7 days....poor constitution must deduct weekly the penalty score from his or her days of healing,....bonus for high constitution add the bonus score to the number of hit points they recover due to resting....Regardless of the number of hit points a character has, 4 weeks of continuous rest will restore any character to full strength."

I have no idea why WotC has this fascination with 'padded sumo'.

You

QuoteThe hit point system is more than just the definitional verbiage you quote.

In all editions of D&D prior to 4E, hit points consistently work like this. The mechanic is mostly associated with a few exceptions (notably in that cure spells don't scale, but there are other problems unique to various editions).

In 4E, the dissociated non-scaling of cure spells is corrected. But this is ironic, because the mechanic dissociates everywhere else that you look: Wounds from poison blades healing up because somebody shouted at you. Overnight healing of mortal wounds. Yada, yada, yada.

Now your 'link' says nothing but your 'opinion'
"The trick to understanding the hit point system is understand that a hit point is not equal to a hit point. In D&D, 1 hit point of damage always represents a physical wound. However, the severity of the wound represented varies depending on how many hit points the victim has."
Except the game doesn't say damage is a physical wound.  
Nice try.

Me

QuoteNo it isn't. You merely accept the way they defined how to do natural healing(whichever version you choose) even though it runs counter to how they describe HP.

1e phb
"A certain amount of these hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors"
I would also like to point out the last sentence in the first paragraph "Thus, the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces."
Runs counter to your claims.

Not really, in 1e, like I said, focuses on 'real damage' when you heal naturally even though they fully acknowledge that HP is not merely physical representation. This dissociation you fully accept, for what seems like no other reason but sacred cowness. 4e focuses on the other side, and this is wrong because...it isn't 1e.

You

Quoterandom bullshit about trolling

Where did you 'prove' anything?

The stupidity of your 'coined term' is it's sophistry.   Every edition D&D is riddled with your 'coined term'.

Quote from: CRKrueger;542424Pretty simple - Cut Hit Points in two and call half of them Stamina, call the rest Wounds.  Everytime you gain HPs, you put half into Stamina, half into Wounds, with the odd number going to Stamina.  So lets grab a guy from the Playtest Document, the Cleric of Moradin.

He has 17 HPs, so on his sheet you list.
Stamina: 9
Wounds: 8

He takes 6pts of damage, now it reads
Stamina: 3
Wounds: 8

He now takes 5pts of damage, now it reads
Stamina:0
Wounds:6

He takes a Short Rest.  Short Rest only heals Stamina, not Hit Points.  So he rolls a 1d8 for Short Rest and gets a 5.  Now it reads
Stamina:5
Wounds: 6 (note the actual Wounds section of the HPs hasn't been affected by the Short Rest).

He decides to cast Cure Light Wounds and rolls a 7, so now it reads
Stamina: 5
Wounds: 8 (note the stamina section was not raised by Curing the wounds)

So now

• I have an easily defined method to finally once and for all declare in D&D what is skill/luck/stamina and what is damage.
• I have a new stat (Stamina) I can use to power Fighter abilities (or other stuff) without resorting to AEDU
• I can have all kinds of "inspirational/leadership" abilities that can heal Stamina or even give temp Stamina.
• I can toss in optional rules that sneak attacks, critical hits, falling damage bypass Stamina if I want.
• I don't have D&D characters running around like superheros with no fear of death.

This is similar to the system I have been  using for years (see various threads) and all the arguements re HP are ones I have engaged with at length.

I would argue that 1/2 HP are too many as wounds as one you reach 50 hp you still have more wounds than a horse.

I have a possible suggestion that might satisfy all sides of the discussion.

Your 1st level HP are your wounds.
Everything else are HP.

You heal at the New D&D next rate so long as you haven't dropped below your wound level. If you do drop below your wound level you heal at the 'daily rate' now that rate can be set by the DM but in most circumstances will be 1hp per day. Until you reach the wound thresh hold after which you heal at the D&D next rate.

This represents the fact that after 1st level you don't grow increasingly immune to being cut and breaking bones you growing increasingly good at not being hit. So all those extra hit points are your ability to avoid damage.

When you do get damaged there is no in game penalty (no death spiral) except that you can no longer recover those HP becuase you are too injured to deflect a blow or duck etc .

Now personally to make 1st level a bit toughter I would actaully set the level as 6 + con bonus and then let PCs roll HP at first level as well . This makes 1st level characters about as tough as old second level characters from 2e days and implies that even at 1st level you have learnt how to duck and move a little which is why fighters get more HP than Wizards

.

Quote from: jeff37923;543096We are behind you Osama Benoist Laden! The OSR Taliban stands ready to execute your will!

(Of course, you do know that you are dealing with an idiot in Sommerjon, right? )

Well at least it deserved an intelligent response. The fact the guy is a total retard with his head up his ass (as demonstrated in his answer to said post clearly showing he did not understand a single word of what I was saying) doesn't phase me. The post wasn't really intended for him anyways.

Quote from: Benoist;543155Well at least it deserved an intelligent response. The fact the guy is a total retard with his head up his ass (as demonstrated in his answer to said post clearly showing he did not understand a single word of what I was saying) doesn't phase me. The post wasn't really intended for him anyways.

Then explain to this total retard what

QuoteThe difference here is something you might have heard about called "actual play". In actual play, characters in AD&D which are out resting in their abode for weeks are not played. They are usually replaced by different player characters who adventure with the group in the meantime. When the player wants to switch back and take control of his resting character once more, either he has rested for less than a month, in which case you calculate the HP recuperation as indicated here, or he's rested more than a month, in which case he is back at full HPs. In either case, the mythical day in which a character would suddenly regain all his hit points does not happen in the game world. No dissociation.

In the 5e case, you can recuperate all your hit points from negative/wounds HPs in 36 hours. This is not a mythical scenario, but something that might occur right there in the game, fairly regularly. If health is part of the HP abstraction in 5e there is a problem, one of a mechanic failing to represent what happens in the world (it takes more than 36 hours to recuperate from sword blows that knocked you unconscious and wounded you), hence, dissociation. UNLESS you define HPs as just being skill and fatigue, in which case I have a problem because (1) actual health is not simulated at all in this game, and (2) this is such a change from the previous baseline of the game as to make this one "not D&D". When I play D&D, I want to play "D&D". Not the game people who hate D&D would like it to be.

means.

Break it down for me Benny.  I'll even take my helmet off so you won't free weird trying to explain it to me.

Quote from: Sommerjon;543167Break it down for me Benny.  I'll even take my helmet off so you won't free weird trying to explain it to me.

I think it's crystal clear for anyone who isn't hellbent on not seeing the reasoning. If you are not illiterate as Justin claims, you can understand what is written in those few lines of mine. Go ahead. Make me proud.

Quote from: Sommerjon;543046Care to explain how 1e hit point recovery is 'abstracted' and 4e/5e is 'disassociated' when
DMG pg82
"Recovery of Hit Points:
When a character loses hit points in combat or to some other attack form (other than being drained of life energy levels), there are a number of different means by which such points can be restored. Clerics and paladins are able to restore such losses by means of spells or innate abilities.
Magical devices such as potions operate much the same way, and a ring of regeneration will cause automatic healing and revitalization in general of its wearer. Commonly it is necessary to resort to the passage of time, however, to restore many characters to full hit point strength.

For game purposes it is absolutely necessary that the character rest in order to recuperate, i.e. any combat, spell using, or similar activity does not constitute rest, so no hit points can be regained. For each day of rest a character will regain 1 hit point, up to and including 7 days. However a
character with a penalty for poor constitution must deduct weekly the penalty score from his or her days of healing, i.e., a -2 for a person means that 5 hit points healing per week is maximum, and the first two days of rest will restore no hit points. After the first week of continuous rest, characters with a bonus for high constitution add the bonus score to the number of hit points they recover due to resting, i.e., the second week of rest will restore 11 (7+4) hit points to a fighter character with an 18 constitution.  Regardless of the number of hit points a character has, 4 weeks of continuous rest will restore any character to full strength."

How does one jump from 27 hitpoints regained to full in one measly day in this so-called 'abstracted' method

I think the key distinction between pre 4e and post 4e, and why folks find the later more problematic boils down to 1-2 day heal times. There are certainly other believability issues with HP (afterall the price of their simplicity is they fail a reality check under scrutiny). But there is till a huge difference between getting dropped to zero, then sleeping for 8 hours and being right as rain the next day, and having to rest a week or more to heal up. I just cant envision the first one as anything but a cartoon. Yes HP have scaling issues. Wont deny that. But 24 hour natural healing means you will always keep running into this issue and it will stand out. Because no matter how shredded up my character is, a single night's rest restores him. For some styles of play, that is fine. For mine it is deeply problematic.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;543170I think the key distinction between pre 4e and post 4e, and why folks find the later more problematic boils down to 1-2 day heal times. There are certainly other believability issues with HP (afterall the price of their simplicity is they fail a reality check under scrutiny). But there is till a huge difference between getting dropped to zero, then sleeping for 8 hours and being right as rain the next day, and having to rest a week or more to heal up. I just cant envision the first one as anything but a cartoon. Yes HP have scaling issues. Won't deny that. But 24 hour natural healing means you will always keep running into this issue and it will stand out. Because no matter how shredded up my character is, a single night's rest restores him. For some styles of play, that is fine. For mine it is deeply problematic.

As Black Vulmae pointed out to me in 1e if you hit 0 you were in a coma for a week. This was dropped from 2e annd in fact in 2e 0 hit points meant you were dead. "Hovering at Death's Door" was an optional rule, poorly explained, that seemed to hint you could only recover from 0  to -10 HP with magical healing, though the rule is very unclear. Of course few people played these RAW.

I think my suggested fix above rectifies all issues. Any HP above 1st level are skill. If you go down to less than your 1st level HP you are wounded and the D&D 5 healing mechanism is suspended until you recover. It's simple, you don't need to track any additional HP or anything, you represent additional HP as skill not bullet-proof-ness and there are no additional maluses to track for damage.
Should please everyone.

With role-playing games, I've always been a bit prejudiced concerning "instant healing" or healing surges.

If the damage is done and you can instantly remove it, it's not like there was really damage dealt in the first place, so it's more like an extra step, an extra record keeping chore that has been introduced into the game. Then I asked myself is healing surges necessary in order to allow the story to progress, or for the players to interact better.

... and the answer is yes, it is necessary, ...however there's more than one way to model this in a game. My preferred way is to have the players describe in detail the moves and combat maneuvers they are using when they are fighting. Then, I'll describe in detail the how those maneuvers play out during the course of combat.

Healing surges are an inescapable part of the video game experience, very necessary, to keep the video game interesting. Not so necessary for the tabletop though.

Quote from: jibbajibba;543172I think my suggested fix above rectifies all issues. Any HP above 1st level are skill. If you go down to less than your 1st level HP you are wounded and the D&D 5 healing mechanism is suspended until you recover. It's simple, you don't need to track any additional HP or anything, you represent additional HP as skill not bullet-proof-ness and there are no additional maluses to track for damage.
Should please everyone.

The problem with this solution is that it has it's own verisimilitude problems and places where it becomes disassociated.  It implies that you need to whittle down someone's "skill" before you can actually do any real damage to them which makes it impossible to draw blood on a first blow for a high-level character.  And when it comes to things like falling damage, it makes no sense to take damage to your "skill" and recover it in a few hours if you got that damage falling into a pit with sharp metal spikes on the bottom.  Sure, the rapid healing and thing like healing surges just make the disassociation problem worse, but even earlier editions ran into disassociation problems because of how the abstraction worked.  You can only expect so much verisimilitude from a system for melee combat adapted from a game called Ironclads.

Quote from: John Morrow;543175The problem with this solution is that it has it's own verisimilitude problems and places where it becomes disassociated.  It implies that you need to whittle down someone's "skill" before you can actually do any real damage to them which makes it impossible to draw blood on a first blow for a high-level character.  And when it comes to things like falling damage, it makes no sense to take damage to your "skill" and recover it in a few hours if you got that damage falling into a pit with sharp metal spikes on the bottom.  Sure, the rapid healing and thing like healing surges just make the disassociation problem worse, but even earlier editions ran into disassociation problems because of how the abstraction worked.  You can only expect so much verisimilitude from a system for melee combat adapted from a game called Ironclads.

I agree with all you say. Except I think its better than just straight HP. With straight HP all you say is true as well. If you fall into a trap in D&D and fall 50 feet onto metal spikes and have 3 hp left you are after all totally fine, apart from having less hit points. Is it better to say 'You are badly hurt but it has absolutley no effect on you' or 'Through your skill and training you managed not to get badly hurt so can carry on'.
Draw blood isn't a wound anyway so maybe you can cut someone a nick a scratch a cut that will heal in a few hours and that is HP damage. Same with poisoned weapons and touch attacks.

Now if we are willing to step out of the standard D&D HP paradigm then then are better options of course. I use a system very close to the OP and have done for 20 + years. Core number wounds and you can absorb so much damage of your HP until you take wounds. Falling does wound damage not HP damage etc.... but its a buit complex and cumbersome and its probably not D&D.

But if we stick within the D&D HP paradigm then setting the last bit of HP as the physical portion of damage and you don't take physical damage until you are  out of luck, skill, etc seems like a workable compromise.

Frankly, i just want to be able to do what I have done for years with D&D which is treat large chunks of HP as wounds. For D&D i dont need anything beyond being low on HP to reflect the wound ( i use wounding systems in other games, but dont feel they fit my style in D&D). As I said it has problems, but that a product of its simplicity (which is also its advantage). For me traditional Hp and a somewhat slower natural recovery rate work just fine. Stuff like healing surges or attempts to rework the hp system, just are not what I am looking for with a game like D&D

Quote from: Benoist;543168I think it's crystal clear for anyone who isn't hellbent on not seeing the reasoning. If you are not illiterate as Justin claims, you can understand what is written in those few lines of mine. Go ahead. Make me proud.

According to you it's crystal clear, yet I'm missing something.

It is why I asked you to break it down for me.

Quote from: Sommerjon;543285According to you it's crystal clear, yet I'm missing something.

Yes, a brain, and more than an ounce of objectivity.