I tend to divide RPGs into a couple of different groups: those that have good systems, and those that have good settings. Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of RPGs can think of a few games that have great settings, but where the system was bad (alot of TSRs non-D&D settings e.g Alternity, Amazing Engine are cases in point; I'd  consider Shadowrun and Earthdawn two games that likewise sell primarily on setting.  Probably Palladium, going on common opinion. On the other extreme, for all the "Generic" systems (GURPS, of late Savage Worlds), the primarily sell is probably system because there is no setting; if the system is awful the prospective buyer will go play something else.

So question is:
a) can anyone thing of any games with both a great setting and a great system?

b) if not, why? Is it just that few people have the sort of skill set to create a setting that is compelling, and build really shining mechanics?

Or is there some sort of direct conflict between the two? (As shown, perhaps, with the 3E/4E D&D shift where all the fluff was nuked to allow for greater balance and etc.).

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;533909I tend to divide RPGs into a couple of different groups: those that have good systems, and those that have good settings. Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of RPGs can think of a few games that have great settings, but where the system was bad (alot of TSRs non-D&D settings e.g Alternity, Amazing Engine are cases in point; I'd  consider Shadowrun and Earthdawn two games that likewise sell primarily on setting.  Probably Palladium, going on common opinion. On the other extreme, for all the "Generic" systems (GURPS, of late Savage Worlds), the primarily sell is probably system because there is no setting; if the system is awful the prospective buyer will go play something else.

So question is:
a) can anyone thing of any games with both a great setting and a great system?

b) if not, why? Is it just that few people have the sort of skill set to create a setting that is compelling, and build really shining mechanics?

Or is there some sort of direct conflict between the two? (As shown, perhaps, with the 3E/4E D&D shift where all the fluff was nuked to allow for greater balance and etc.).

A) Elric, CoC, Warhammer.
B) The 'problem' is, that RPGs are mostly a province of geeks - and as such, we are prone to finding, sooner or later, all those bloody details that don't quite work, or don't quite make sense .

Quote from: Rincewind1;533913A) Elric, CoC, Warhammer.

Yeah, that would be my immediate list too.  (Though I'm not sure Elric is a great representative of the source material...but who cares, it's a great system and the setting material is presented well.)

Quote from: misterguignol;533914Yeah, that would be my immediate list too.  (Though I'm not sure Elric is a great representative of the source material...but who cares, it's a great system and the setting material is presented well.)

It's no Warhammer in terms of "All you need in 1 book" - if you don't know/have Stormbringer saga, you will need the guideline. But the mechanics are quite good I'd say. Warhammer's mechanic is not the best thing since sliced bread, but it creates enough of an illusion (especially as compared to DnD) of gritty realism, that fits the setting quite well.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;533909I tend to divide RPGs into a couple of different groups: those that have good systems, and those that have good settings. Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of RPGs can think of a few games that have great settings, but where the system was bad (alot of TSRs non-D&D settings e.g Alternity, Amazing Engine are cases in point; I'd  consider Shadowrun and Earthdawn two games that likewise sell primarily on setting.  Probably Palladium, going on common opinion. On the other extreme, for all the "Generic" systems (GURPS, of late Savage Worlds), the primarily sell is probably system because there is no setting; if the system is awful the prospective buyer will go play something else.

So question is:
a) can anyone thing of any games with both a great setting and a great system?

b) if not, why? Is it just that few people have the sort of skill set to create a setting that is compelling, and build really shining mechanics?

Or is there some sort of direct conflict between the two? (As shown, perhaps, with the 3E/4E D&D shift where all the fluff was nuked to allow for greater balance and etc.).

A) Traveller, Cyberpunk 2020, d6 Star Wars, others mentioned above

B) Traveller suffered from this when TNE came out. Mekton II and Mekton Zeta while good anime mecha games, never could seem to get a great setting created for them by R. Talsorian Games and it wasn't until Janus Publications produced The Jovian Chronicles that a setting worthy of the game system came about. Come to think of it, Star Wars became mired in suck once WotC tried to shoehorn the game into the d20 system.

While some settings do not work with some systems. Some systems are a very poor fit for some settings.

I'm trying to think of a great setting.  Hmmm....

I don't ever recall RPG players ever screaming, "If only this RPG used the blah blah setting!"  Or, "I need a RPG system that works within the blah blah setting I love so much!"  Or even, "I need an RPG for my awesome setting!"

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;533925I'm trying to think of a great setting.  Hmmm....

I don't ever recall RPG players ever screaming, "If only this RPG used the blah blah setting!"  Or, "I need a RPG system that works within the blah blah setting I love so much!"  Or even, "I need an RPG for my awesome setting!"

I had heard it quite a bit.

Gaiman's Sandman (Scion's a big failure in this aspect), Exalted (well, SOME people like the setting and it's premise), Ravenloft (I'd say that an idea from RPG.net to outfit it for BRP is a good one, especially as BRP has a system that's already quite similar to Dark Powers). 3 from the top off my head.

Quote from: Rincewind1;533913A) Elric, CoC, Warhammer.
B) The 'problem' is, that RPGs are mostly a province of geeks - and as  such, we are prone to finding, sooner or later, all those bloody details  that don't quite work, or don't quite make sense .

True. I think systems are more prone to nit-picking, while settings endure (and get a new ruleset every so often).

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;533925I'm trying to think of a great setting.  Hmmm....

I don't ever recall RPG players ever screaming, "If only this RPG used the blah blah setting!"  Or, "I need a RPG system that works within the blah blah setting I love so much!"  Or even, "I need an RPG for my awesome setting!"

Players are more likely to play in the setting and then defend the system as perfect, despite its flaws.

Harnmaster/Harn

What attracts me first to an RPG is its "setting".  I love to look at books with awesome artwork on their covers.  Space 1889 is a setting I'm interested in playing.  But then I start reading about the RPG system used (both editions over the years)....  Then I put the book with the cool looking setting on its cover back on the store shelf.

Eclipse Phase is another one I've put back on the shelf because of the RPG system.  Shadowrun's setting (Seattle) did not interest me, so I did not get to its RPG system.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;533909So question is:
a) can anyone thing of any games with both a great setting and a great system?

Pendragon and Flashing Blades.

Setting v. System is a false dichotomy.

Quote from: Benoist;533949Setting v. System is a false dichotomy.

True Dat.

Any Setting will work with ANY System - as long as you have a Good and Creative GM.


It all goes back to the GM.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;533954True Dat.

Any Setting will work with ANY System - as long as you have a Good and Creative GM.


It all goes back to the GM.


- Ed C.

Sure, but it's a bit like riding on a rocky road in a Volkswagen Bug and a Jeep. Both are doable, especially if you are a good driver, but it's just comfier to take the Jeep.

Quote from: Benoist;533949Setting v. System is a false dichotomy.

I disagree.

Some systems are better suited to some settings.