I don't think I ever used grid, and I use a lot of minis.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;520299This post makes me suspect that a lot of people in this thread are seeing "miniatures" and reading "battlemat" - which, even in and of itself, doesn't have to be used as a "snap-to" playspace.  I use the grid (or, actually, the hex side) for a scale reference, there's no requirement to have figures occupy one space or another.

Sorry, but at least in my case you are incorrect. I have been running games since 1977, and only times I tried running a roleplaying game with minis was without a battlemat, way back in AD&D 1e days. I have *played* using a battlemat with minis using 3.x, which was worse, but the miniatures alone are enough. BTW, I came into RPGs through wargaming, so it's not like I can't understand or don't like using minis. I just find that they negatively affect immersion, which is why I play RPGs.  

Immersion is a highly subjective thing, and each of us reacts differently. I do not doubt that for some people, using minis enhances their immersion just as others are unaffected, and still others, like me, are adversely affected. What works for you will not necessarily work for me, and vice versa.

-clash

Quote from: Benoist;520066No, they do not disturb my immersion. I can imagine what my character sees from his standpoint, and "be him" as he is represented on the diorama, IF the rules themselves allow for that space to exist in my mind.

What disturbs my immersion is gaming the system extensively or having tactical rules that actually do not represent the game world in meaningful ways, including effects and decision-making that only makes sense from the rules' standpoint. i.e. I want to think tactically about the game world, not the rules.

This.

I'm cool with pencil scrawl and pocket change or a full diorama, but once the rules directly shape my options -- I'm out. I'm playing another game then. I can't help it, I lapse into Tactics Mini mode. Love both, but they can't share the same space with me.

Quote from: flyingmice;520304Sorry, but at least in my case you are incorrect. I have been running games since 1977, and only times I tried running a roleplaying game with minis was without a battlemat, way back in AD&D 1e days. I have *played* using a battlemat with minis using 3.x, which was worse, but the miniatures alone are enough. BTW, I came into RPGs through wargaming, so it's not like I can't understand or don't like using minis. I just find that they negatively affect immersion, which is why I play RPGs.  

Immersion is a highly subjective thing, and each of us reacts differently. I do not doubt that for some people, using minis enhances their immersion just as others are unaffected, and still others, like me, are adversely affected. What works for you will not necessarily work for me, and vice versa.

-clash

I've done both, but I find the miniatures more damning than the mat. I can sometimes still use the mat to map out things for players to see things for themselves, without breaking immersion to much.

Quote from: DestroyYouAlot;520299This post makes me suspect that a lot of people in this thread are seeing "miniatures" and reading "battlemat" - which, even in and of itself, doesn't have to be used as a "snap-to" playspace.  I use the grid (or, actually, the hex side) for a scale reference, there's no requirement to have figures occupy one space or another.

This is one of the reasons I liked that 1e AD&D used "tabletop inches" as the unit of measurement, 'cause I was comfortable using a tape measure and protractor from tabletop minis wargames.

Counting squares turns a roleplaying game into Candyland for me.

The tactical grid needs to be an OPTION in D&D Next included in a "tactical module" or something. For those that need it, while we could just avoid that BS altogether.

I got nothing against stuff like attacks of opportunity and the like IF I can play them without any spatial representation on the table whatsoever.

If the game assumes I'm using a fucking grid, it's over, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm DONE with grids.

/rant

Quote from: Benoist;520369The tactical grid needs to be an OPTION in D&D Next included in a "tactical module" or something. For those that need it, while we could just avoid that BS altogether.

I got nothing against stuff like attacks of opportunity and the like IF I can play them without any spatial representation on the table whatsoever.

If the game assumes I'm using a fucking grid, it's over, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm DONE with grids.

/rant

This.  As I said far earlier in the thread I prefer using mini's but only in relation to big picture things, marching order, where are you generally, that kind of thing, once it gets all tactical I zone out.  It causes tactile/sensory overload for me, not the good kind.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;520366This is one of the reasons I liked that 1e AD&D used "tabletop inches" as the unit of measurement, 'cause I was comfortable using a tape measure and protractor from tabletop minis wargames.

This was what I was talking about above, where I referred to running AD&D 1e games with minis and without a battle mat - and not enjoying the experience. We used string and a ruler, which is directly from mini wargames. I have no problem running wargames with minis, because there is no immersion to be affected.

-clash

Quote from: Melan;520183Switching to minis has improved my ability to add character mobility and spatial variety into battle a lot.

Finally ditching them after six years of playing that way has allowed me to be even more fluid and add a 3d component to what's going on - nowadays, I sketch out the battle location, and let players and NPCs run away with the possibilities (our last session featured a very 3d battle in a crumbling pleasure-palace; with its parapets, rooftops, galleries and ground level wings, all played fairly abstractly).

So, in my case, it has been an important transitory step. But I have given away most of my miniatures now, and am also happy I don't have to lug a boxful of them around anymore.

***

BTW, delver, please remove that table-breaking image.

Quote from: Settembrini;520192Miniatures prevent what I call the collapse of the spatial wave function. As Melan says, true freedom 3D is better achieved with sketches in conjunction with descriptions.
But using grids and tokens guarantee the affair stays at least two dimensional. Whereas descriptions alone very easily collapse into the one-dimensionality and linearity of language.

Thus is the nature of the discretization of space.

I started another thread about this stuff. I wish to hear more about it.

While I do understand and can even experience the immersion hit of using counters or miniatures on a map board, the reason I still prefer them (though sketches can also be fine for a lot of things) goes back to the old saying that a picture is worth a thousand words.  I find GM bandwidth to be one of the biggest constraining factors for how fast a game runs (one of the reasons why I've been involved in several dual-GM games, both as player and GM) and it just seems easier for the GM to accurately convey the scene with a map and some markers rather than just trying to describe it all verbally.

Late to the party:  No, miniatures do not disrupt my immersion.  In fact, if anything, they add to my immersion as their use aids me in visualization of the situation at hand.

Quite often I'll hear from people something to the effect of, "Of course minis and battlemaps should be part of D&D, because D&D has it roots from mini wargaming."

I think that statement misses the very important fact that one of the whole points of having D&D created in the first place was to implement a role-playing aspect and get away from the tactical maneuvering aspect.  If minis and battlemaps were meant to be part of D&D as a "core" aspect, then the creators wouldn't have omitted them in the first place.

Quote from: Drohem;520519Late to the party:  No, miniatures do not disrupt my immersion.  In fact, if anything, they add to my immersion as their use aids me in visualization of the situation at hand.

Wow mate, it's good to see you around!!

Quote from: Benoist;520538Wow mate, it's good to see you around!!

Thanks!

I use wood craft spools, and so far as I can tell we do okay.