Quote from: BedrockBrendan;520054This topic came up on the 2 GMs, One Mic news thread and starting it here so we don't derail it.

Basically I have always found miniatures disruptive to immersion. I just get hung up on those little pieces at the table and my imagination simply goes on autopilot or something. This isn't something I believe everyone has a problem with, I lots of gamers who find miniatures help them get into the game. For me they shift my mind just enough that it becomes a barrier.

The answer is NO.  I never let a piece of metal or simple plastic interfere in my game whatsoever...

If you let it become a barrier, then it is because you made it an issue, not the miniatures themselves.

Quote from: CRKrueger;520068When you "use minis", are they well-painted minis that accurately reflect what your character looks like or are they a 20-year old hunk of lead that gets grabbed out of a shoebox?  I find for me that makes a difference.

While I do have hunks of 30 year old lead. Sometimes they don't turn out too badly.

Quote from: estar;520082While I do have hunks of 30 year old lead. Sometimes they don't turn out too badly.

Strip it down and repaint...   The only purpose that thing is good for is a sling bullet...

Different approaches and all, I suppose. Using miniatures in 3rd ed games didn't create any problems of immersion as long as I was pointing out point blank "this here on the table is an abstraction. This is NOT what 'really' happens in the game world. Try to visualize what's going on, and not think in terms of the rules. Tell me what you do, and we go from there." All the players were noobs and it worked like a charm. I later switched between 3D dioramas, 2D mats, no mat at all, and no miniatures at all between sessions. It worked for them and me.

Now, I wouldn't use anything approaching 3rd ed's complexity in terms of tetrapyloctomy on the battle mat (I'm thinking of stuff like 5 foot steps, diagonal movement and hell, any "square" movement, attacks of opportunity and so on). I'd rather something (still) associated, fast, with some tactical component to it I can either use for miniatures game play, or entirely use/tune off in my mind, as warranted by the feeling of the day.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;520054This topic came up on the 2 GMs, One Mic news thread and starting it here so we don't derail it.

Basically I have always found miniatures disruptive to immersion. I just get hung up on those little pieces at the table and my imagination simply goes on autopilot or something. This isn't something I believe everyone has a problem with, I lots of gamers who find miniatures help them get into the game. For me they shift my mind just enough that it becomes a barrier.

Actually, I am quite the opposite I like them because I have terrible spatial abilities and it helps me if I visualize things and to conceptualize what's going on far easier.  It actaully is a physical problem for me given it is how cerebral palsy effects how your brain is "wired" and spatial awareness or lack of is a condition quite commonly affected by that handicap.

But like Ben I definitely do not need or like 4e's levels of complexity in their use.  3e is a little better but I really don't like the focus on tactics in that game either even though I love the system.

Yes indeed! Minis screw up my immersion royally. The game goes from "Character Centric" - what is going on around my guy - to "Mat Centric" - where is everything in absolute coordinates. This means stop action - nothing animates smoothly in my mind. I'm looking at my character from on high rather than seeing through his eyes. Cuts things dead for me.

-clash

They do a bit. I think it's ok for certain battles where the emphasis is on big-picture strategy and I've always used them as such. Mind you, I've never used actual minis because of $$; I've always used counters or drawn it out. I can draw, and fast, so it's not a problem. That said, most recently I've taken a page from roguelike computer games and started using letters to denote item and character locations abstractly. This actually helps a bit with immersion (as many roguelike players will tell you) because once you're used to it your mind starts to process the abstract information to create a mental picture: it's like a half-textual medium.

Quote from: RandallS;520073As long as the minis are just used for a battle order display and aren't constantly being fiddled with, they don't bother me much. But actually using minis (or tokens or whatever) on any type of tactical display for combat or the like where they become the focus of what's going on and I loose immersion (and usually shortly thereafter, loose interest).

I feel much the same way.  If I'm going to play a role-playing game, and you tell me minis and tactical maps are required, I'm going to say "no thanks."

I admit 90% of my gaming is without minis, but sometimes I do like them.  Things like marching order, camp site layout, etc.  But I won't get all tactical with them.

Oh, and for the rest of you, be nice to the badly painted 30 year old minis

Minis do not disrupt immersion for me.

They actually help me with immersion by showing the relative position of my character to everything else going on around him.

That said, I'm just as comfortable when the GM is using a grease board or scratch paper and some basic sketches.

I do like using minis with systems that have a lot of tactical options.

Seeing the pieces on the board helps me envision exactly where everyone is in my imagination, and that helps immersion, doesn't hinder it.

Quote from: flyingmice;520091Yes indeed! Minis screw up my immersion royally. The game goes from "Character Centric" - what is going on around my guy - to "Mat Centric" - where is everything in absolute coordinates. This means stop action - nothing animates smoothly in my mind. I'm looking at my character from on high rather than seeing through his eyes. Cuts things dead for me.

-clash

Samesies.

Although I will note that it's not that I can't enjoy miniatures or use of visual aids.  It just puts me in a different stance/headspace/whatever.  I think the variety of stances makes things more enjoyable for me.  But then I also like GMing more than playing, so I may just naturally like looking at the game in different ways.

Minis don't disrupt my immersion.

Counting squares or hexes on a battlemat disrupts my immersion.

Quote from: flyingmice;520091Yes indeed! Minis screw up my immersion royally. The game goes from "Character Centric" - what is going on around my guy - to "Mat Centric" - where is everything in absolute coordinates. This means stop action - nothing animates smoothly in my mind. I'm looking at my character from on high rather than seeing through his eyes. Cuts things dead for me.

-clash

Same here, plus I rarely can find miniatures that look like my PC's. Ever. Once in a while I get close but it is very rare. When I GM its worse, as many of my villains have similar problems.

Interesting range of responses. I am seeing four camps so far:

1) miniatures disrupt immersion
2) miniatures assist immersion
3) miniatures don't disrupt immersion
4) miniatures dont dsrupt immersion except when combined with things like indepth tactical mechanics

No, minis do not disrupt my immersion.

I have not always liked minis and have only grown fond of them with the advent of prepainted minis, because I am a terrible painter.