There's a happy medium in everything. This includes this very topic. It is my personal conviction, however, that the theorization of game design has gone way overboard in some parts of the "industry" and on the gaming forums that follow them (and vice versa). Frank Trollman is representative of that trend, though he's far from being alone in this field, obviously.

Quote from: Benoist;513988There's a happy medium in everything. This includes this very topic. It is my personal conviction, however, that the theorization of game design has gone way overboard in some parts of the "industry" and on the gaming forums that follow them (and vice versa). Frank Trollman is representative of that trend, though he's far from being alone in this field, obviously.

I strong agree. Unless the charop people and math people find a problem with a game that affects play for most groups, I'm not sure the problems they find need to be priority fixes -- especially if fixing their issues nerf parts of the game that will not give normal groups that don't have "extreme RPG players" in them. I know of a good number of 3.x groups who have never seen most of the problems many of the "broken rules" supposedly cause if you listen to people claiming about broken 3.x rules on the Internet.

Sure, sometimes the math is broken and it affects nearly everyone. For example, the original 1.0 version of Microlite74 was never tested at levels above 5-6 as I never expected anyone would actually play it that long. When first written, I meant it as an intro to old school play for people who only knew 3.x and assumed if people found they liked old school play they would move to a real TSR game or a real clone. It turned out that character abilities advanced far too fast for old school monsters and adventures, but the problem did not become really noticeable until you surpassed 5th or 6th level. Once players started reaching those levels, the problem because obvious and Microlite74 got a quick 1.1 update.  Skill Challenges in 4e are another example of some that was broken and would affect most players if not fixed.

While issues like "Pun Pun" and "The Diplomancer" show the dangers things of open-ended modifiers or allowing players to freely choose classes, feats, skills, and magic without any table/campaign restraints, they really do not deserve to have the game designed to prevent such abuses the "extreme RPG players" who live to find loopholes that will allow them to "win" by ruining the fun for people not interested in abusing the mechanics.

Quote from: jeff37923;513957Only if the DM has no common sense and allows it.

There are plenty of ways to stop the Diplomancer. The most obvious one being the Diplomancer and its target audience not speaking the same language. No communication => no diplomacy. Send in a mook who doesn't speak the language to attack the Diplomancer and see how long it lasts.

This arguement is based upon math and the belief that Players and GMs are nothing but bitches of the rules who cannot think outside of those rules.

Such idiocy gets what it deserves.

Actually, someone who was that preternatural at Diplomacy probably wouldn't need a shared language to get their point across. The right smile, the right body language the right nuance. Shit I pulled a girl on a train in Romania when I was a kid with no shared language and that lasted a week and I have +30 Diplomacy tops ....

Quote from: Rincewind1;5137999 ranks unnamed
9 Charisma unnamed
9 Synergy synergy
3 Skill Focus unnamed
9 Motivate Charisma unnamed
2 Racial racial
2 Sacred Vow perfection
2 Evangelist cleric unnamed
2 Mwk tool circumstance
6 Beguiling Influence enhancement?
5 Friendly Face circumstance
4 Wednesday's Left Eye unnamed
9 Item Familiar unnamed
4 Herald Domain unnamed
2 Mind Domain unnamed
2 Negotiator unnamed
8 Custom item competance
1 Polite trait unnamed
1 Honest trait unnamed
5 to 7 Cohorts aid another check

Two things this stack of modifiers proves:

1.) Don't be a game crunch whore. Don't allow every single feat, class, item, or what have you from every single possible source into your game.

2.) There are some really shitty game designers out there. 3.x is designed so that, with a couple of exceptions, named modifiers don't stack.

The sheer number of "unnamed" modifiers in this stack of dreck is proof that some designers/writers needed to pull their heads out of their asses and use the very easily implemented brake built into the system.

As an example: Domain Abilities should be Divine modifiers. That means only 1, and only the highest. Evengelist Cleric, also Divine. Most others should receive similar descriptors. Why is "Negotiator" not a competence bonus, for example?

(Spitballing here, since 3.5 was after I'd been forced out of playing on a regular basis. Damn real life.)

But, there will always be shitty game designers. And the prime defense against rotted crunch is #1—don't be a crunch whore.

(Caveat: I'm not defending the Diplomacy rules, or entering the "infinite skill modifier" debate. Just pointing out some basic truths.)

1l;dr: Don't be a crunch whore.

Quote from: Benoist;513295And Frank Trollman is totally full of shit, as usual, by the way.

He really, really is.

Well, I think that mostly comes from being surrounded by pet trolls...it encourages sloppy thinking.

Quote from: Doom;514030it encourages sloppy thinking.

Sloppy thinking can also be a byproduct of "expediency" and/or "tunnel vision".

Certainly, but when everything you say is greeted with unquestioning cheers, it can lead to saying some pretty asinine things. I mean, when he says "the 20th century was more stable than the 19th century" and "there are no Libertarian thinkers" (to give just a couple quotes), there's nobody either who knows enough to correct him, or wants to deal with the endless troll attacks by doing so.

Similarly, when he uses a word wrong like "vaporware", all that happens is cheering.

The whole idea that 5e is vapourware to help people keep their jobs is frankly retarded. I don't know this Trollman person, but that premise is so idiotic that I can only sneer dismissively in response.

Quote from: jeff37923;513979Then you miss the possibility of using that skill to increase the immersion of your Players in what is really a different world. It doesn't always have to be "Save or Die" unless you are unimaginative and only think in binary.

"Yeah, you missed the roll on your Vacc Suit check, so you forgot to put on the gloves.  Your hands freeze off more or less instantly while your team mates haul you back in the ship."

Or, did you have an actual example of why Vacc Suit 6 is valid?  I am assuming you are just going to fall back on "you are not imaginative" ad nauseum, but I thought I might hold out for the possibility you would back up your assertion for once.  But that is hoping for a bit more integrity from you than you have, which is to say, more than zero.

QuoteWhile I am awesome in my greatness (and thank you for recognizing that), I did not have all the answers. However, even as a neophyte GM, I knew that I could solve whatever problems came up in game without throwing up my hands and screeching that the entire game is broken.

Good thing no one here is throwing up their hands and screeching that the entire game is broken.  It's mostly just people that are screeching about being required to read a topic they have no insight or interest in, then forced to post in it at gunpoint.

Reading comprehension allows us to formulate responses to posts that actually exist.  People can completely ignore that and respond to posts that only exist in their minds.  Or, they could simply be dazzled by all the big words and just skip the reading part and post whatever dribbles out of their heads onto the keyboard.  I am not going to speculate which applies here, but you are not making an argument against any points I have made, so I will leave that decision up to the reader.

In either case, wildly mis-characterizing posts does not make your argument look better.  Now if you could find someone that was throwing up their hands and screeching that the game is broken, you would probably have a point.  Since you don't have the intellectual honesty to even attempt that, I will let you off the hook and just wait for the 'wharblgarbl butthurt' replies to start coming.

Quote from: StormBringer;514040"Yeah, you missed the roll on your Vacc Suit check, so you forgot to put on the gloves.  Your hands freeze off more or less instantly while your team mates haul you back in the ship."

Or, did you have an actual example of why Vacc Suit 6 is valid?  I am assuming you are just going to fall back on "you are not imaginative" ad nauseum, but I thought I might hold out for the possibility you would back up your assertion for once.  But that is hoping for a bit more integrity from you than you have, which is to say, more than zero.

I once addressed this with Spike in a thread about a year and a half ago. Since you are beginning to bore me, I will just repost the answer I gave then.

Quote from: jeff37923;400835OK fuckface, you want to know how to use Vacc Suit skill? I figured this one out when I was 12. Here's the Zen Master secret, you use the skill when it helps you to describe or illuminate how dangerous or unEarthly the environment is that the PCs are moving through. In short, you use the skill to help you as Referee maintain a suspension of disbelief and a level of excitement for your Players. Duh.

Are they on a Titan-like world? One with liquid ammonia or methane for lakes and a surface of ice so crystalline solid it doesn't exist outside of a lab? Then with an understanding that could come from 5 minutes of reading a Scientific American article have the PCs make a skill roll when they run, jump, climb, or reasonably engage in any physical activity that may bring them in contact with the terrain.

Are they on a lunar surface similar to our own moon? Then take a look at some NASA footage of astronauts trying to walk. The moondust turned out to be an incredibly slippery surface and there are some funny movies of the Apollo astronauts just trying to maintain their footing. That would be about a Vacc Suit-0 level of skill (higher levels mean more experience moving and operating the vacc suit).

Yes, a vacc suit is not just a set of clothes that you put on. It is a machine and while I think you don't need to bore your Players with them adjusting their air mixtures, it is still a device that can fail in numerous ways. For example, a simple fall could break the radio antenna on a PCs suit and then that PC is effectively deaf and dumb until it is fixed. Another example for the Titan-like world, there has to be a waste heat removal system for the vacc suit and a clumsy or inattentive wearer could sit down wrong and bring the radiator in contact with some ice - the temperature differential would cause the ice to sublime explosively like a grenade going off.

Again Spike, I'm sorry that you lack the creativity to come up with these obvious solutions to your Vacc Suit conundrum. I'll reach out and say that if you need further help in the future, just go ahead and ask for it.

I'll reach out to you as well and offer to help in the future, since you can't seem to extrapolate within reasonable bounds without going off of the deep end. You know, where you screech "Save or Die!!!" while excluding the middle.

And yes, it does show a lack of imagination and reasoning ability.

Quote from: StormBringer;514040Good thing no one here is throwing up their hands and screeching that the entire game is broken.  It's mostly just people that are screeching about being required to read a topic they have no insight or interest in, then forced to post in it at gunpoint.

Reading comprehension allows us to formulate responses to posts that actually exist.  People can completely ignore that and respond to posts that only exist in their minds.  Or, they could simply be dazzled by all the big words and just skip the reading part and post whatever dribbles out of their heads onto the keyboard.  I am not going to speculate which applies here, but you are not making an argument against any points I have made, so I will leave that decision up to the reader.

In either case, wildly mis-characterizing posts does not make your argument look better.  Now if you could find someone that was throwing up their hands and screeching that the game is broken, you would probably have a point.  Since you don't have the intellectual honesty to even attempt that, I will let you off the hook and just wait for the 'wharblgarbl butthurt' replies to start coming.

Your needless exercise in d20 skill math was close enough. As an example of going off the deep end, or in your case The Derp End, it was pretty spergtacular.

And I really have to ask since you keep using hypotheticals that rarely seem to come up in Actual Play. When was the last time you actually gamed?

Quote from: jeff37923;514042The Earth is degenerating these days. Bribery and corruption abound.
Children no longer mind their parents, every man wants to write a book,
and it is evident that the end of the world is fast approaching.
- Assyrian Stone Tablet, 2800BC

I just felt compelled to mention that your signature, while funny, is a fraud.  There is no Assyrian stone tablet that ever said that.  There were no books in 2800 BC (and the fact it was "written on a stone tablet" is the first clue to that fact).  Oh, and there were no Assyrians either (they wouldn't be around for another 800 years).  As far as folks can tell, it tracks back to 1924.

Quote from: Mistwell;514045I just felt compelled to mention that your signature, while funny, is a fraud.  There is no Assyrian stone tablet that ever said that.  There were no books in 2800 BC (and the fact it was "written on a stone tablet" is the first clue to that fact).  Oh, and there were no Assyrians either (they wouldn't be around for another 800 years).  As far as folks can tell, it tracks back to 1924.

Thank you. I still think it is a pretty good quote for a signature.

And I have to wonder what in the Hell made you want to research a signature? I never gave it any more thought than, "That sounds cool."

Quote from: Doom;514038I mean, when he says "the 20th century was more stable than the 19th century"

Wait.  Did he really say that?  Because I'm pretty sure that WWII and the Cold War plus all those other wars happened in the 20th century.

Quoteand "there are no Libertarian thinkers" (to give just a couple quotes), there's nobody either who knows enough to correct him, or wants to deal with the endless troll attacks by doing so.

Hayek, von Mises, and Friedman do not exist in the Trolliverse.  I'm sure there are a great many more who wouldn't have labeled themselves libertarians, but classical liberalism basically founded America, so he's just a dumbass.  Who does he think great left-wing thinkers are?  Marx?  Hitchens?  Krugman?


Indeed, my good chap, the problem with the American government today is that it's not printing enough money.  Perhaps a spot of alien invaders would convince these politicians to step it up a bit.

Quote from: jeff37923;514042I once addressed this with Spike in a thread about a year and a half ago. Since you are beginning to bore me, I will just repost the answer I gave then.

Ah, I see.  So bringing up an argument from a year and a half ago isn't stalkeriffic spergerage, it's the very model of a calm, reasoned approach.  Gotcha.  Maybe you could kind of just let it go, since it has been 18mos or so.

Let's take a look though:

QuoteOK fuckface, you want to know how to use Vacc Suit skill? I figured this  one out when I was 12. Here's the Zen Master secret, you use the skill  when it helps you to describe or illuminate how dangerous or unEarthly  the environment is that the PCs are moving through. In short, you use  the skill to help you as Referee maintain a suspension of disbelief and a  level of excitement for your Players. Duh.

And what does this have to do with either putting on or using a Vacc Suit?  Wouldn't this be more of a Dex check?

QuoteAre they on a Titan-like world? One with liquid ammonia or methane for  lakes and a surface of ice so crystalline solid it doesn't exist outside  of a lab? Then with an understanding that could come from 5 minutes of  reading a Scientific American article have the PCs make a skill  roll when they run, jump, climb, or reasonably engage in any physical  activity that may bring them in contact with the terrain.

So, again, how does this have anything to do with the Vacc Suit?  You are talking about the physical difficulties of navigating hostile terrain.  If that same character had similarly difficult terrain to navigate but didn't need a Vacc Suit, would you have them rolling Vacc Suit anyway?

QuoteAre they on a lunar surface similar to our own moon? Then take a look at  some NASA footage of astronauts trying to walk. The moondust turned out  to be an incredibly slippery surface and there are some funny movies of  the Apollo astronauts just trying to maintain their footing. That would  be about a Vacc Suit-0 level of skill (higher levels mean more  experience moving and operating the vacc suit).

Would the moon dust be any less slippery if they had more training with their suits?  Again, if they could survive in the environment without a Vacc Suit, would you still have them roll their Vacc Suit skill to keep their footing or something else?  Or would they be rolling a physical skill, like Dex instead?  Would they need to roll Vacc Suit if there was an atmosphere on the planetary surface, but nothing else was different?  Some kind of pervasively oily surface, lower than normal gravity, but a breathable, non-caustic atmosphere that only required normal clothing.  You would still require a Vacc Suit check?

QuoteYes, a vacc suit is not just a set of clothes that you put on. It is a  machine and while I think you don't need to bore your Players with them  adjusting their air mixtures, it is still a device that can fail in  numerous ways. For example, a simple fall could break the radio antenna  on a PCs suit and then that PC is effectively deaf and dumb until it is  fixed. Another example for the Titan-like world, there has to be a waste  heat removal system for the vacc suit and a clumsy or inattentive  wearer could sit down wrong and bring the radiator in contact with some  ice - the temperature differential would cause the ice to sublime  explosively like a grenade going off.

In other words, save or die/suck.

What circumstances, aside from an asshole GM, would cause a Vacc Suit check to see if a radio antenna broke off?  Sure, a sufficient fall might trigger such a check, but what else?  Two guys just standing around, with the one of them constantly having his antenna fall off his suit for no deterministic reason, while the other guy is doing back-flips and dancing the samba?  And how does "clumsy or inattentive" have anything to do with the suit itself?  That sounds more like Dex and Edu to me.

QuoteAgain Spike, I'm sorry that you lack the creativity to come up with  these obvious solutions to your Vacc Suit conundrum. I'll reach out and  say that if you need further help in the future, just go ahead and ask  for it.

These aren't solutions.  They are wild contrivances to bolster a ridiculous argument.  No one is going to call for a Vacc Suit check to see if a character tumbles down a ravine.  That is a Dex check.  Like it is in every other game out there.

Also, when you whinge about a lack of imagination, you might want to use examples that are farther afield than "straight out of the book".

QuoteI'll reach out to you as well and offer to help in the future, since you can't seem to extrapolate within reasonable bounds without going off of the deep end. You know, where you screech "Save or Die!!!" while excluding the middle.

Oh, no, trust me, I won't be asking.  You have trouble with just grasping the basics of what a skill is intended for, let alone the more complex ideas of what it actually does.  And when you get called on your inability to comprehend the basics, you fall back into this juvenile stance where you lash out at everyone because your honor has been impeached or something.

QuoteAnd yes, it does show a lack of imagination and reasoning ability.

You are not even remotely qualified to judge these characteristics in anyone else.  That mote you see in everyone else's eye is really just the log in your own.  Remove that and we can talk.

QuoteYour needless exercise in d20 skill math was close enough. As an example of going off the deep end, or in your case The Derp End, it was pretty spergtacular.

At least David R could admit he wasn't very interested in game design topics.  Which is far, far better than you jumping into the middle of them and spewing your ignorance all over the discussion.

QuoteAnd I really have to ask since you keep using hypotheticals that rarely seem to come up in Actual Play. When was the last time you actually gamed?

Uh, no shit.  We've been over this.  You keep bringing this up like an OCD squirrel on crack.  Everyone knows they don't come up in play.  Everyone knows they are hypothetical.  Everyone knows already, Jeff.  You can stop pretending this is some clever point you are making that will win the argument and the admiration of millions.  It has been explained patiently and exhaustively in words small enough that even you should be able to understand.  Here, I will quote myself again:

Quote from: StormBringer;513971I am clearly not concerned about a  Diplomancer popping up in every game and ruining the fun.  The  Diplomancer, like Pun-Pun, is a thought exercise that can illuminate  potential problems very early on, for certain values of "problem".  It  is certainly valid to just ignore the edge cases and worry about the  little cracks as they come up.  You may end up chasing a dozen cracks  that all have the same origin, however.

On the other hand, my argument (as Spike has perceived from my postings)  is that you can look at the overall issue of unlimited DCs and  unlimited modifiers and conclude there are some potential problems  there, if careful attention is not paid.  The modifiers don't even have  to be in the 75+ range for a problem to crop up, as Spike points out.  A  mere 20 point difference means five party members are almost always  getting extra damage from monster Sneak Attacks, while one party member  almost never gets the extra damage.

See how that works?  Spike understands the discussion, perhaps you could ask him to read these posts out loud and explain them to you.  It would probably help out, because as it stands, you appear to be intentionally mis-reading everything in some bizarre attempt to 'get back' at people who have embarrassed you in the past when they pointed out your inability to draw even the simplest conclusions from straightforward statements.

Like that other time you played the wounded little bunny recently, you aren't discussing anything people here are saying, but demanding that people treat you like a good-faith participant when you completely make up what people are arguing, or so wholly mis-characterize what they are saying, you may as well be making it up.

But, let's see this stunning imagination of yours at work.  Two things:
a) provide an argument that escalating bonuses and escalating DCs are not a problem in and of themselves.  Not because they don't happen at your table, not because you haven't heard of them happening, and not because GM block FTW.  In fact, address any of the points I made in that regard directly without weasel words and a mealy-mouthed, backhanded swipe at my 'gaming cred' or whatever you think that was.
b) list some examples where Vacc Suit is useful that aren't a direct re-hash of exactly what the book states.  I don't know about you, but directly quoting a previous work isn't what passes for 'imagination' where I come from.  Hell, I won't even demand examples for Vacc Suit-6.  I will be satisfied with Vacc Suit-1 or -2.

Ball's in your court, chief.  Hit it back or play the whinging victim some more.  Your call.