Quote from: Opaopajr;505678Otherwise where do you put the zombie comedies.

Forgot those. Zombieland and Shawn of the Dead. Both classics.

And, of course, the Return of the Living Dead series, which was more camp and less horror. Camp cannot be Grimdark, though settings which would otherwise be Grimdark can be played for camp value (as people in this thread have described doing.)

The problem, Daddy, is that grimdarks are usually over - the - top in the ways ZA usually isn't.

Quote from: Rincewind1;505794The problem, Daddy, is that grimdarks are usually over - the - top in the ways ZA usually isn't.

Maybe, depending on the definition we never really came to a consensus on. I'm basing my concept on TV Trope's Crapsack World.

That fits my definition of Grimdark, and gives plenty of illustrative examples.

And, regarding Moody, if the pending extinction of the human race, and the author's approval of same, doesn't equal Grimdark, I'm not sure what would.

I agree, 40K is a gonzo Grimdark setting. Grimdark plus over-the-top bizarreness and (sometimes) silliness. But I don't think the gonzo element is necessary to make something Grimdark.

Some ZA falls into just plain ordinary, depressing as shit, human race on the way out, everybody dying like animals, even the normal humans are eating each other, grim darkness. Plus The Road. That's Grimdark, to me.

Not Gonzo Grimdark, just plain Grimdark. There could be a distinction drawn there.

(Gonzo Grimdark. Now there's a term for you.)

Like most of nerd terms, both of the definitions are correct, and it's simply the one with more followers that'll become correct one day .

I usually see a certain layer of "gonzo", as you put it, or farce as OHT'd say, as a part of grimdark pattern, that is often lacking in Zombie Apocalypse. Grimdark is also a pejorative term a bit imo, but I am perhaps just oversensitive.

So I guess ZA can be considered borderline Grimdark.

Quote from: Rincewind1;505822Grimdark is also a pejorative term a bit imo, but I am perhaps just oversensitive.

No, you're right and I let that slip my mind. Grimdark is highly pejorative, not only mocking the setting itself, but with added overtones of "why would anyone intelligent want to play that?" It's a term intended to dismiss a setting/game and its fans in toto, it presumes no defense of said setting can or should be mounted.

I get not wanting to label things with that tag, especially things you like. As I said, I like ZA fiction, hell I even like 40K, Gonzo Grimdark and all.

(Oh yes, you will all be using that term someday. Bwa-hah-hah-hah-hah!)

So maybe I should change my position a bit. I don't mean to tar anything with that label.

It's just that some settings are grim and ugly, others grim and ugly in an over-the-top angsty kind of way, and yet others grim and ugly, but with added wackiness.

Assuming Grimdark is too pejorative a term, what would we call these by?

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;505846No, you're right and I let that slip my mind. Grimdark is highly pejorative, not only mocking the setting itself, but with added overtones of "why would anyone intelligent want to play that?" It's a term intended to dismiss a setting/game and its fans in toto, it presumes no defense of said setting can or should be mounted.

I get not wanting to label things with that tag, especially things you like. As I said, I like ZA fiction, hell I even like 40K, Gonzo Grimdark and all.

(Oh yes, you will all be using that term someday. Bwa-hah-hah-hah-hah!)

So maybe I should change my position a bit. I don't mean to tar anything with that label.

It's just that some settings are grim and ugly, others grim and ugly in an over-the-top angsty kind of way, and yet others grim and ugly, but with added wackiness.

Assuming Grimdark is too pejorative a term, what would we call these by?

I'd suggest we just keep calling the dark, grim and over - the - top gonzo stuff Grimdark, and not be oversensitive wusses  over it, and the rest we just call grim or dark fantasy, or post - apocalyptic . I actually like Grimdark settings, and I like the term - it is just too often that it's used for the "evil".

I like the term too... no matter if some people use it disparagingly... it's got just enough of a suggestion of 'silly' to it to set it apart from purely nihilistic stuff like bleak ZA/PA/FA settings.

Do Judge Dredd and Nemesis count as 'Grimdark'... seeing as 40K draws from them pretty heavily?

So wait, there's a necessary tongue and cheek nature to grim dark, yes? Like, the black knight can't just have jet black armor, he must have HUGE SPIKEY jet black armor, with bits of his enemies hanging off like Trophies and Fetishes! The "good guys" aren't questionably grey in their tactics, they must be RUTHLESS and RELENTLESS zealots holding the last bastion of Crushing Order in a world gone mad.

Like that, right? In essence, grimdark is like the newest marketing size/flavor "Xtreme!" but dressed in counterculture evil/misery cool...

Quote from: Opaopajr;505870So wait, there's a necessary tongue and cheek nature to grim dark, yes? Like, the black knight can't just have jet black armor, he must have HUGE SPIKEY jet black armor, with bits of his enemies hanging off like Trophies and Fetishes! The "good guys" aren't questionably grey in their tactics, they must be RUTHLESS and RELENTLESS zealots holding the last bastion of Crushing Order in a world gone mad.

Like that, right?

You are on the right track.

Quote from: Simlasa;505850Do Judge Dredd and Nemesis count as 'Grimdark'... seeing as 40K draws from them pretty heavily?

I don't think so. Dredd and Nemesis were intentionally funny, and think part of the definition of grimdark implies that one is missing the joke.

Quote from: stu2000;505892I don't think so. Dredd and Nemesis were intentionally funny, and think part of the definition of grimdark implies that one is missing the joke.

Original Rogue Trader and early WFB/WFRP were certainly intentional with their humor... hmmm... did 40K not start as grimdark?

My impression is that the humor has been lost or eroded over time. My flgs is inhabited primarily by 40K fans. Most of them only know Dredd by the movie and never read any 2000AD. Satire is not part of the appeal for them.

I enjoy it for the humor. We can all share our enjoyment. If I run 40K rp for them they aren't offended by the humor. I get odd looks at times when I comment solely on the humor in the novels or comics. So no--I don't think humor is key in 40K anymore. I'm glad it's still there, but maybe you have to have watched it evolve over time to pick up on some of it.

Quote from: Simlasa;505911Original Rogue Trader and early WFB/WFRP were certainly intentional with their humor... hmmm... did 40K not start as grimdark?

The old stuff had humour as a part of design, in that good old, Blackadderish & Only-fools-and-horsish, distinct British style.

The humour of 2e and FFG W40k comes from mostly doing the things Over The Top.

And just like in trench warfare, being over the top is a great idea, if you want to get shot.

Yeah, I realize that newer 40K and WFB and WFRP are taking themselves much more seriously and the joke is mostly on them... but since they all started off with tongues in cheek where do you think the 'grimdark' comes in... is it after they lose their sense of humor? Or have they been 'grimdark' all along.
To my mind they always had it... but I'm thinking of the term in a non-pejorative sense.

Quote from: Simlasa;505931Yeah, I realize that newer 40K and WFB and WFRP are taking themselves much more seriously and the joke is mostly on them... but since they all started off with tongues in cheek where do you think the 'grimdark' comes in... is it after they lose their sense of humor? Or have they been 'grimdark' all along.
To my mind they always had it... but I'm thinking of the term in a non-pejorative sense.

Hm, true, true. This is becoming quite convoluted. I'd say though that early Warhammer, both Fantasy and 40k, was just fantasy in a grim setting with a lot of black humour in it - so basically grimdark lite. Later, when attempts to remove that humour were made, while at the same try, trying to, in a convoluted manner, keep it and raise the ante on dark fantasy, caused  the Grimdarkening Hard.