OK, so it's well known around these parts that we are Role Players and not Story Gamers. (Well, many of us...) Pundit would say that Emulation is the foundation of the game. We are exploring a fictional place, not trying to construct a story. And one of the examples Pundit has given is along the lines that if the goblin gets a critical hit on your character and kills him, that's the sudden end of your grand story!

But consider this. Many of us probably play games where CharGen takes forty minutes to an hour. Some of us probably play games where CharGen can take a whole session, and players go on to build lovingly crafted backstories for their characters. Some of this might be over the top, on occasion, but a lot of love can go into CharGen.

Now if you then go 4 or 5 sessions and pop your clogs, back to the drawing board for CharGen - fair enough. You've had some mileage out of your CharGen efforts.

But what if literally the first significant thing that happens after CharGen is that through some mildly imprudent choice your character ends up exposed to some common ailment, rolls badly and dies?

Would you rewind the game and say, let's keep the character and start again?

Would you overrule the dice?

Assuming that the players have participated in lengthy CharGen:- Is it acceptable to kill a character in the very first session? Is it acceptable to visibly fudge it so the character doesn't die in the very first session? What about invisibly? What about if you're only ten or twenty minutes into the very first session?

I'm all for expecting players to be robust about character death, but if you make your mate sit down for two hours to gen up a character then straight away roll some dice and tell him he's dead, you're going to provoke some kind of a tantrum at the very least. You might well get punched in the face.

So what's the answer to this, and what implications does it have for the kinds of game we're playing, for immersion, for emulation, for believability, for the "we're not here to tell stories" argument, for "script immunity"?

I usually GM Warhammer, so the PCs are protected against those few first blows.

To be honest, I rarely actually fudge the players, though oddly enough, I am a big fan of John Wick's ideas that a player's death should mean something - but as I said, I usually GM Warhammer or Trail of Cthulhu. In Warhammer, a death to a bandit on the road is but another remark to the cruelty and cold brutality of the world that surrounds the rest of the heroes. In Trail of Cthulhu, I slay the PCs ruthlessly, if only to remind them that they are nothing in the vast schemes of the universe.

So in my games, the characters may have a bit of Plot Immunity - but you can never, ever, rely on it. My last Cthulhu campaign ended after 3rd session - the crew thought that just because we were playing a campaign, their characters were going to be immune from madness and death. Well, I crushed their illusions rather swiftly, and now we're off to Bookhounds of London.

But would you fudge it for sure in an extreme case? Very soon after CharGen? And if you would, what does it say about the types of game we're playing?

I hate 2nd ed Warhammer Fate Points in general precisely because they are a cast-iron guarantee of survival. Hate them, passionately. Still enjoy 2nd ed Warhammer but hate its Fate Point system.

Quote from: Omnifray;503341But would you fudge it for sure in an extreme case? Very soon after CharGen? And if you would, what does it say about the types of game we're playing?

I hate 2nd ed Warhammer Fate Points in general precisely because they are a cast-iron guarantee of survival. Hate them, passionately. Still enjoy 2nd ed Warhammer but hate its Fate Point system.

Oh please, I use 2e's Fate Points . Not that they are much different - just bonus lives. Quite useful in the cruel world of WFRP, where Raise Dead is well, impossible.

But to the question - it depends. And not actually on how much the chargen will take.

Did the character die because of PCs decision, such as attacking a bandit armed to teeth despite being offered safe passage for small toll? Then tough luck, you're dead.

Did I just gave the party an unbalanced encounter, and forced them to fight it? Then I will probably fudge the dice just a bit, because it's my fault here.

As a GM I may decide to intervene on a players behalf if there was what I see as a decent reason. It could be poor die rolls; bad tactics-I can't say specifically it's any one thing but I'll know it when I see it. Some players can handle character death better than others.

Character death is part of the game.  I do not care if it is in the very beginning, the middle, or when they are high-leveled.

If the players can handle it, they are good to go.  If they cannot, they can go play Tic-Tac-Toe with a sloth.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;503352If the players can handle it, they are good to go.  If they cannot, they can go play Tic-Tac-Toe with a sloth.

I get the sentiment, but unfortunately my available pool of players isn't so great I can afford to be that cavalier towards it. This isn't to say it's a huge issue at my table-most of my group is pretty mature, experienced gamer's. But yeah we have a few cats who despite what would seem like every reason in the world to act like adults just can't seem to pull it off at the table. (Good cats away from the table mind you, and more often than not productive at the table-just every once in a while their elevated estrogen levels get in the way of our good time. Briefly, because I'm a tyrant when it comes to acting like a broad at the table.)

Any ways the long and short of it is while uncommon, I have in the past intervened on a players behalf.

The answer is to have a character generation tbat takes 10 mn tops.

Quote from: Benoist;503362The answer is to have a character generation tbat takes 10 mn tops.

or make multiple characters...

I haven't had too many players make up multiple characters-one cat does, the rest seem to be a little more linear in that respect. But we do have character generation down to a science. With the character generators it is about 10 minutes or less.

Quote from: Benoist;503362The answer is to have a character generation tbat takes 10 mn tops.

Not necessarily.  I can get a lot of enjoyment from a lengthy chargen (though I'm also happy to sling 3d6 six times with the best of them) and I'm certainly not alone there.  I think the OP has a faulty premise, however.  Chargen should be its own reward.  E.g. I invest the time into chargen because I enjoy doing so.  What happens to the character in the first session doesn't matter as I've already had fun.

So my answer is that if the dice (or action) says death then death it is.  I can think of at least two occasions where I killed off a character in the first session.  In both cases the player shrugged it off and had a new character ready for the next session.

Quote from: Ancientgamer1970;503364or make multiple characters...

Or that, indeed.

Quote from: Fiasco;503367Not necessarily.  I can get a lot of enjoyment from a lengthy chargen

Or that, if you are so inclined.

Quote from: Fiasco;503367... I think the OP has a faulty premise, however.  Chargen should be its own reward.  ...

We do not live in a world of shoulds and oughts, but in a world of is and is not. You may enjoy CharGen, and so may I, but some of my players are not such huge fans, and I recognise that. What's more, if I end up pre-genning everyone's characters, that's a lot of effort to go to if they then snuff it straight away.

Quote from: Omnifray;503396We do not live in a world of shoulds and oughts, but in a world of is and is not. You may enjoy CharGen, and so may I, but some of my players are not such huge fans, and I recognise that. What's more, if I end up pre-genning everyone's characters, that's a lot of effort to go to if they then snuff it straight away.

If you want your players to respect characters longer, make them do their characters.

They'll not be so trigger - happy, if only because they know it's a trip to WritingLand if they die.

Quote from: Omnifray;503396We do not live in a world of shoulds and oughts, but in a world of is and is not. You may enjoy CharGen, and so may I, but some of my players are not such huge fans, and I recognise that. What's more, if I end up pre-genning everyone's characters, that's a lot of effort to go to if they then snuff it straight away.

It would be unthinkable for me to do pregens for my players unless it was a one shot or something like that.  But you are correct, there is no should or ought. Clearly our play groups are very different, that's cool.  I would be concerned, however, if my player's enthusiasm was that tenuous.