Midnight got zapped by FFG when they went mostly boardgames. The end of 3.5 also killed it.

The one thing that makes a good horror game is players that want to be scared. You know them. The ones that really got into camp fire stories. Hmong techniques are nice but 90% of it is the players.

Quote from: danbuter;502056Midnight got zapped by FFG when they went mostly boardgames. The end of 3.5 also killed it.

I have all of the Midnight books and supplements that were released and I really enjoy that setting.  It is sad it went the way of the Dodo...

Quote from: Cranewings;502074The one thing that makes a good horror game is players that want to be scared. You know them. The ones that really got into camp fire stories. Hmong techniques are nice but 90% of it is the players.

I am in total agreement of your thinking on horror games.  It was difficult to get the players to feel that way playing CHILL, but when it came to Call of Cthulhu, that was a whole different story.

Quote from: Rincewind1;502008You know, UA and Kult aren't really grimdark - they are just dark. UA's the odd Modern Magic with a Dresden Files turned up to 11, while Kult's basically splatter horror with gnosticism thrown there, while grimdark's when it's really shitty world, but not exactly horror.

*shrug* they seem pretty grim and dark to me. I would argue with your definition but what the OP really wants is to piss on the 40K lads.

Regards,
David R

Maybe now that the storygamers are largely irrelevant, Pundit needs a new enemy.

I love Warhammer and 40k - easily my favorite published settings. I don't need them to be "redeemable" to enjoy them.

As for grimdark, I enjoy those settings because Batman is more interesting than Superman. It's very easy to be a good guy in Forgotten Realms, but its a tough road in Midnight.

And grimdark isn't new. Nothing is more grimdark than CoC or Stormbringer. The end of the world is well known to Stormbringer fans and if you are playing during the time of Elric, your PC won't have much of a future regardless their deeds.

Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;502014And likewise if I have a bunch of screwball PCs, I can throw them into a grimdark setting and voila! Everything they do is heroic by virtue of being a lesser evil than the grimdarkness.

This is why I love Dark Heresy. The PCs are fighting for a better tomorrow, trying to hold back the darkness long enough for humanity to evolve. There is a bright light, but it may not come for 10,000 more years and unless the PCs do their job, the light of the Emperor could be extinguished in their own lifetime.

Quote from: Cranewings;502074The one thing that makes a good horror game is players that want to be scared. You know them. The ones that really got into camp fire stories. Hmong techniques are nice but 90% of it is the players.

Absolutely. Horror games only work with players who want to be scared. Horror RPGs require a much higher willingness to suspend disbelief than immersion in other RPGs. And suspension of disbelief is a choice.

BTW, what are Hmong techniques?

Hmong = horror. I can't type on an iPod.

Is Nightbane grim dark? I've run horror one shots with D&D but the only two systems I've run successful horror campaigns with is my homebrew and Nightbane.

Quote from: Cranewings;502130Is Nightbane grim dark?

Depends how you run it. I view it akin to Ravenloft or Midnight or Systems Failure. Evil rules the world, but you are a badass hero that the Evil fears and there exists a glimmer of hope of defeating it.

Mechanoids: Invasion is probably grimdark. You are stuck on a world being chopped up (literally) by psionic cyborgs who do vivisections on people for entertainment and your best hope is lasting long enough to somehow sneak aboard the Mechanoid ship and hide out for a few generations.

Dead Reign, or any other Zombie Apocalypse setting is also probably grimdark if the zombies don't rot. That's why I liked the 28 Days / Weeks option of just surviving long enough for the infected to die.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;501996Canon 2nd Edition adventure involved precisely that: Killing a Dark Lord (Duke Gundar, I believe it was).

Darklords and Dark Powers are two completely different things. For one easy way to tell the difference, DPs don't officially have names, appearances or discernible motivations, let alone stats.

("Are the Dark Powers good or evil? Are they gods or monsters? What is the ultimate goal of their grand and awful experiment? The truth may transcend mortal comprehension." --from the Ravenloft 3e core, page 11.)

Quote from: David R;502089*shrug* they seem pretty grim and dark to me. I would argue with your definition but what the OP really wants is to piss on the 40K lads.

Regards,
David R

I noticed that, though I think nobody cared . I think we should distinct between grimdark and Horror settings for RPGs. Maybe UA armies can be considered Grimdark, I don't know them that well, but Kult is (splatter)horror, clearly. Grimdark is a setting that's scary but does not go into horror, basically , for me.

Quote from: stu2000;502032Those two games are specifically how I learned that no game can write itself dark and scary. I have run some very successfully scary scenarios with both, but more commonly, the scenarios are hilarious. I play with a bunch of pretty funny people, and they're generally inclined to go there. The grimdarker I am, the funnier they are. That's generally to our mutual satisfaction.

My flgs has a huge WH40K following, so Dark Heresy games are doubly riotous, quickly.

IME, a good scary game depends on underplaying the details, to give players less to rebel against. The more over-the-top a game's world, the more ripe for comedy.

Quote from: Cranewings;502074The one thing that makes a good horror game is players that want to be scared. You know them. The ones that really got into camp fire stories. Hmong techniques are nice but 90% of it is the players.

Good GM, and decent players, and GM will need to resort to all tricks he has up his sleeve. I sometimes manage to scare my CoC players, or at least make them tense. Maybe I should perhaps write a bit of a guide - don't want to sound too bastardly here, but GMing CoC since I was 14 I think I know something about it. I usually run pretty Purist games too, so I mostly scare with narration rather then mechanics.

To be honest, there's one sad truth if you try to run a horror game - ban the players who you know will just joke it out. By joking out I don't mean that all must be serious, but one joke in the wrong moment and bam - whole mood's gone.

Quote from: GrimGent;502182Darklords and Dark Powers are two completely different things. For one easy way to tell the difference, DPs don't officially have names, appearances or discernible motivations, let alone stats.

("Are the Dark Powers good or evil? Are they gods or monsters? What is the ultimate goal of their grand and awful experiment? The truth may transcend mortal comprehension." --from the Ravenloft 3e core, page 11.)

Indeed. I'd say that slaying Dark Powers'd be a bit off - limit (or at least'd require a veeeeery epic campaign), since they are Lady of Pain powerful.

Then again, can always slay the Dark Powers and force players to replace them, for Balance Must Be Achieved.

Dammit guys, this thread really makes me want to run Ravenloft, with it's whole "No victory can be complete" theme.

I never have issues with scaring people in CoC games. Then again, the characters are likely to go insane or get killed. If the players are trying to stay alive and sane, they get worried about silly stuff that won't even affect them. Then, after they breathe a sigh of relief, I drop the hammer.

Quote from: RPGPundit;501954This thread is the chance for anyone who wants to try to argue that these settings have any redeeming qualities; are any of them actually worthwhile because of their value as settings? As comedy? As cautionary tales? Anything else?

And if so, what makes those different from the vast majority of ridiculously vapid Grimdark settings?

RPGPundit

Why would I want to argue? You've already made your mind in the most ridiculous terms. Any attempt to egnage with such a close minded bigot would be pissing in the wind. Have a nice day.

Quote from: Rincewind1;502342Dammit guys, this thread really makes me want to run Ravenloft, with it's whole "No victory can be complete" theme.

I'm toying with setting up a Ravenloft sandbox campaign this year using the LotFP rules.  I've started writing up brief descriptions of the domains for new players.

Regarding the original question: it depends on the definition. If the utter inevitability of Ragnarök makes Norse mythology grimdark, then the answer is yes, because that stuff is awesome.

I'm not saying it's necessarily the case, just pointing out if.