Hm. Coming to think of it Pseudo, that Memory Wipe idea? That's good. Let heroes do that.

Then when Strahd's dead...guess who just mind - raped a girl so he can kill some Big Baddie? So who's next in line for becoming a Prisoner/Lord of Castle Ravenloft?

^.^

Heck, this can be even a matter of party choosing which member must become new Strahd, so that the rest can go. Of course, they'll have double - hit to their morality, since they both helped to force a girl to love a monster, as well as abandoned their comrade.

Midnight I suppose is Grimdark but Psuedoephedrine I think has the right of it when it comes to RPGS. I suppose this thread is really a dig at certain 40K fans. Whathefuckever. I'll throw in UnKnown Armies and Kult. Both of which are extremely cool in their own ways.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David R;502001Midnight I suppose is Grimdark but Psuedoephedrine I think has the right of it when it comes to RPGS. I suppose this thread is really a dig at certain 40K fans. Whathefuckever. I'll throw in UnKnown Armies and Kult. Both of which are extremely cool in their own ways.

Regards,
David R

Right, I forgot about Midnight.

World of Myth is a bit grimdark too, though the Circle may be broken due to Alric and Soulblighter forcing the Circle.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501998Hm. Coming to think of it Pseudo, that Memory Wipe idea? That's good. Let heroes do that.

Then when Strahd's dead...guess who just mind - raped a girl so he can kill some Big Baddie? So who's next in line for becoming a Prisoner/Lord of Castle Ravenloft?

^.^

Heck, this can be even a matter of party choosing which member must become new Strahd, so that the rest can go. Of course, they'll have double - hit to their morality, since they both helped to force a girl to love a monster, as well as abandoned their comrade.

That'd be a pretty awesome way to handle it.

I think El Pundito asked a loaded question, and I'm not interested in "arguing" with anyone who wants to frame the debate like a wanker.

Quote from: David R;502001Midnight I suppose is Grimdark but Psuedoephedrine I think has the right of it when it comes to RPGS. I suppose this thread is really a dig at certain 40K fans. Whathefuckever. I'll throw in UnKnown Armies and Kult. Both of which are extremely cool in their own ways.

Regards,
David R

You know, UA and Kult aren't really grimdark - they are just dark. UA's the odd Modern Magic with a Dresden Files turned up to 11, while Kult's basically splatter horror with gnosticism thrown there, while grimdark's when it's really shitty world, but not exactly horror.

Plus, grimdark's usually comically dark and full of despair, and I'd not say that Kult has many elements of farce to it.

I assume that "grimdark" means "there is only war." As in the originating Warhammer 40K slogan: In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war.
 
I like grimdark fiction in and of itself. It doesn't need to pay my bills, wash my socks, impart social wisdom or provide for the material needs of the Catholic Church. It just has to be an enjoyable story. Roleplaying game wise, a grimdark setting is a boon because it magicaly protagonizes any character or idology that is imported to the grimdark. (EDIT: protagonised in the sense that no matter what the character or ideology wants, they have to get it for themselves without appealing to the police, social wellfare agency, the kindness of strangers etc etc etc...)
 
Grimdarkness also sets the bar for heroism very very low. Batman is a vigilante in the real world, but set him against the grimdark of Gotham and suddenly he's a SUPERHERO! And likewise if I have a bunch of screwball PCs, I can throw them into a grimdark setting and voila! Everything they do is heroic by virtue of being a lesser evil than the grimdarkness.
 
I prefer grimdark to be about the grimdark itself. Orwell's 1984 is a good example of a book that examines the grimdark. I'd also hold up I have no mouth and I must scream as grimdark done right. I cant abide authors (or players) who leap to the conclusion that since they're heros in the grimdarkness, they're also heros in real life. Ann Rand's Anthem for example. (Edit: I also don't like the movies based on the wanky comic books Pundit aluded to.)

Quote from: RPGPundit;501954The settings that fall under the category of "grimdark": hopelessly oppressive, ridiculously militaristic usually, almost always full of cheap "visuals" full of nonsense comparable to the worst masturbation fantasies of certain types of comic book artists and heavy metal fans.

This thread is the chance for anyone who wants to try to argue that these settings have any redeeming qualities; are any of them actually worthwhile because of their value as settings? As comedy? As cautionary tales? Anything else?

And if so, what makes those different from the vast majority of ridiculously vapid Grimdark settings?

I dislike settings like Warhammer and stories that romanticize it. I can see grimdark situations happening for a limited time and for specific reasons but as a general condition I find it uninteresting because how of unrealistically it treats the human spirit.

Some specific comments on some of the things talked about in the thread.

Midnight - Midnight is probably one of the better dark settings out there. Mainly because the setting is a logical outgrowth of the premise not because all things human are dark, tragic, and grimy. Life sucks in Midnight because of a uber powerful being winning the fight. I admit I never understood how the other gods in Midnight were able to be checked by the big evil god that was exiled.

Ravenloft - Ravenloft is more of mythic setting. It like a bunch of dark fey realms rather an world like Oerth and others. Evil and good are more iconic in Ravenloft. And while TSR went overboard with the product line, my impression that it stayed pretty close to it's mythic roots and had some interesting stuff in it.  This in contrast to World of Darkness which was written as the "real" world and it's bleak worldview made it unappealing.

Warhammer - I find warhammer (both game settings) to be utterly uninteresting.

I guess part of my dislike of Grimdark is because I am a history buff and read a lot of biographies of people. There are bad moments in history but good moments as well. It not just a long and bleak litany of human woes in life in the mud and grime. And I just have trouble buying stuff that try to make an entire setting like that without some good reason.

In the settings I create I try to keep a mix of good, neutral, and evil. With plausible reason for things existing the way they do. I find that more interesting because it generates a greater variety of conflict which leads to a greater variety of adventures.

By the way, I'd say that after Storm of Swords, Song of Ice and Fire went borderline grimdark, since the rules of the universe just got from "realistic" to DARK AS SHIT.

Except of course two main luvvies of Martin, Jon Snow & Failnerys.

Quote from: estar;502020Midnight - Midnight is probably one of the better dark settings out there. Mainly because the setting is a logical outgrowth of the premise not because all things human are dark, tragic, and grimy. Life sucks in Midnight because of a uber powerful being winning the fight. I admit I never understood how the other gods in Midnight were able to be checked by the big evil god that was exiled.

The world of Midnight is meant to be a prison for Izrador, with the various species like elves, dwarves, humans, etc. established at least partly to prevent Izrador from doing exactly what he's doing (sending lesser minions like Orcs to build temples that suck the world dry of magic and life to allow his escape). The other gods don't live in the prison, and one of the purposes of the prison is to prevent divine magic from leaking in or out.

That sounds awesome! Midnight is one of those settings I always looked at, but never bought. Too many other settings that I liked more were being published. The 00's really were a new Golden Age for fantasy settings.

Quote from: Rincewind1;502008You know, UA and Kult aren't really grimdark - they are just dark. UA's the odd Modern Magic with a Dresden Files turned up to 11, while Kult's basically splatter horror with gnosticism thrown there, while grimdark's when it's really shitty world, but not exactly horror.

Plus, grimdark's usually comically dark and full of despair, and I'd not say that Kult has many elements of farce to it.

Those two games are specifically how I learned that no game can write itself dark and scary. I have run some very successfully scary scenarios with both, but more commonly, the scenarios are hilarious. I play with a bunch of pretty funny people, and they're generally inclined to go there. The grimdarker I am, the funnier they are. That's generally to our mutual satisfaction.

My flgs has a huge WH40K following, so Dark Heresy games are doubly riotous, quickly.

IME, a good scary game depends on underplaying the details, to give players less to rebel against. The more over-the-top a game's world, the more ripe for comedy.

Quote from: estar;502020I guess part of my dislike of Grimdark is because I am a history buff and read a lot of biographies of people. There are bad moments in history but good moments as well. It not just a long and bleak litany of human woes in life in the mud and grime. And I just have trouble buying stuff that try to make an entire setting like that without some good reason.

In the settings I create I try to keep a mix of good, neutral, and evil. With plausible reason for things existing the way they do. I find that more interesting because it generates a greater variety of conflict which leads to a greater variety of adventures.

I am not a history buff, but I do research the historical events that lead up to tyrannies and try to incorporate them into my settings because that makes them more realistic and helps immersion. Now that sounds stupid when you consider fantasy (which tends to turn everything up to 11), but making sure that the setting is internally consistant is important in my games. If the setting is implausible, then there is less chance for me to really involve my Players in it.

Re: Midnight.

What ever happened with that? Sudden cancellation of every single product, including PDF sales? Such a whole-line massacre seems unusual, especially when PDF's, once uploaded to DTRPG, are essentially cost-free.

(That is, they'd already paid for writers, artists, editors, layout, and were selling the PDF's, so there was no financial incentive to stop selling those.)

Anyone have any idea? Something to do with 4e, perhaps?

Quote from: Daddy Warpig;502041Re: Midnight.

What ever happened with that? Sudden cancellation of every single product, including PDF sales? Such a whole-line massacre seems unusual, especially when PDF's, once uploaded to DTRPG, are essentially cost-free.

(That is, they'd already paid for writers, artists, editors, layout, and were selling the PDF's, so there was no financial incentive to stop selling those.)

Anyone have any idea? Something to do with 4e, perhaps?

I think it got GSLed. The GSL was revised in March 2009, sales of the 3.5 line were terminated in April 2009, and the movie, complete with a 4e adventure set in Midnight for people who buy the DVD, came out in July 2009.