Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;501974This is what the spell "Modify Memory" was invented to handle.

I am pretty positive Dark Powers'd intervene at this point, if we're talking strict canon.

Quote from: danbuter;501976Not true. In fact, several adventures are about defeating a Dark Lord. It's not easy, but it is doable by powerful parties.

Defeating for good, or "just for now"?

Quote from: Rincewind1;501977I am pretty positive Dark Powers'd intervene at this point, if we're talking strict canon.

I don't know Ravenloft very well, but if there's just some dumb, arbitrary shit there to keep you from solving what is otherwise a trivial problem with magic, it's kind of shitty setting design.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501973Really? Tell more - I thought that, for example, The Big Bad Vampire was actually immortal by the very nature of his curse - he can only be slain if the girl he loves actually loves him back, and since she never does...

The thing about the Dark Powers is that they aren't well-defined because they are more or less a plot device.  It's hard to say anything definitive about them.  They are both the jailers of the Dark Lords (like Strahd), and thus responsible for much of the misery in Ravenloft, yet they also release champions of good from Ravenloft if they are deemed worthy through their actions.

As for being defeat-able, Vecna planned to destroy them.  Also, this is D&D...just about anything can be killed in D&D, even the gods.

Actually, it depends. I'm writing a "grimdark" setting of sorts, and it is entirely redeemable. The heroes can win, end the power of demons, and so on. It may take multiple heroes and a couple of campaigns, but it is possible. I am just leaving it to GM's to run that kind of thing--but I'll have strongly worded advice that yes, it is allowed.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;501978I don't know Ravenloft very well, but if there's just some dumb, arbitrary shit there to keep you from solving what is otherwise a trivial problem with magic, it's kind of shitty setting design.

If she was not immune to mind magic*, she'd be forced by vampire's stare long ago to love him . Of course I'd probably let the players do that - just break the spell in the final encounter.

*when curse stuff's related at least, I guess.

Quote from: misterguignol;501979The thing about the Dark Powers is that they aren't well-defined because they are more or less a plot device.  It's hard to say anything definitive about them.  They are both the jailers of the Dark Lords (like Strahd), and thus responsible for much of the misery in Ravenloft, yet they also release champions of good from Ravenloft if they are deemed worthy through their actions.

As for being defeat-able, Vecna planned to destroy them.  Also, this is D&D...just about anything can be killed in D&D, even the gods.

I know about the jailers stuff, didn't know the latter. And true on D&D, but I dunno - I'm not some "canon hog", but killing DPs is a bit like killing Gods of Chaos in Warhammer - too much of a deal breaker.

Then again, if players pulled out enough epic shit...

Quote from: Rincewind1;501981If she was not immune to mind magic*, she'd be forced by vampire's stare long ago to love him . Of course I'd probably let the players do that - just break the spell in the final encounter.

*when curse stuff's related at least, I guess.

Make a love potion / give her a copy of Twilight.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;501982Make a love potion / give her a copy of Twilight.

It won't work; Strahd is blue, not sparkly.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;501982Make a love potion / give her a copy of Twilight.

I am pretty positive when Stephanie Meyer dies, she'll be sucked into Ravenloft as punishment for that novel - she will be trapped in a circle of death and rebirth, except that it'll be some random vampire who'll rather impale himself on a stake then have sex with her.

Since it'll be a vampire of Oscar Wilde.

Plus I am sure Strahd treats anyone who reads Twilight in his domain to slow death by ripping their innards and hanging people by them at the trees.

Ravenloft always struck me as being more Grimm than grim... more fairy tale and Universal Monster and Hammer Horror than bleak unremitting blackness.
When I think 'Grimdark' I think of GW's original Rogue Trader game... which was certainly grim and dark... but also had a big dose of (black) humor to it. WFRP's Old World setting is not nearly so bleak... but I think humor was also part of what made it distinct.
Anyway, if plenty of folks enjoy those settings and play games set in them that seems like all the 'redemption' they need... (but yeah, I prefer the older versions where the humor was still allowed).

It depends on what it is used for.

I have a GrimDark setting where an undead plague overtakes an entire world. The PCs, at best, can fight a holding action against the undead plague, but they cannot win. It is depressing as shit and not really that much of a fun place to stay

I use it so that Players can figure out ways to escape and try to preserve as much of the living as possible. That "lifeboat" then becomes the new game world in which the PCs help to create.

I don't find the appeal of gaming in GrimDark settings otherwise. The whole WH40K setting has no interest for me.

Quote from: RPGPundit;501954The settings that fall under the category of "grimdark": hopelessly oppressive, ridiculously militaristic usually, almost always full of cheap "visuals" full of nonsense comparable to the worst masturbation fantasies of certain types of comic book artists and heavy metal fans.

This thread is the chance for anyone who wants to try to argue that these settings have any redeeming qualities; are any of them actually worthwhile because of their value as settings? As comedy? As cautionary tales? Anything else?RPGPundit

No, I pretty much agree with you that grimdark should be left to the spotty, adolescent death metal fans it was conceived for.

As a UK gamer, I recognized that Games Workshop was going this way pretty early on, even whilst it was still an across-the-board retailer. Citadel miniatures were already starting to get that camp heavy metal look and we had the 'hilarious' Thrud the Barbarian comic strip to contend with in White Dwarf. I think that this contributed a great deal to my long personal hiatus from the hobby. I simply cannot stand the juvenile and, as you say, masturbatory vibe of it all.

Quote from: km10ftp;501988No, I pretty much agree with you that grimdark should be left to the spotty, adolescent death metal fans it was conceived for.

As a UK gamer, I recognized that Games Workshop was going this way pretty early on, even whilst it was still an across-the-board retailer. Citadel miniatures were already starting to get that camp heavy metal look and we had the 'hilarious' Thrud the Barbarian comic strip to contend with in White Dwarf. I think that this contributed a great deal to my long personal hiatus from the hobby. I simply cannot stand the juvenile and, as you say, masturbatory vibe of it all.

Bah. Thrud the Barbarian was awesome - I thought it was a Polish comic, as he was featured in Polish gaming magazine.

What do you know. Time for torrents, then!

Quote from: Rincewind1;501961There's no official definition, but the term was probably made for Warhammer's world.

Or by them. (Accidentally.)

"In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war."

TV Tropes even notes that Darker and Edgier is known as Grim Dark, because of 40K.

Are they redeemable?

Well, as someone noted it depends on what you mean by Grimdark. For me, Deadlands: Hell on Earth was passably cool until I got to reading some of the later supplements. Once I got into reading about Cyborgs and their nature and origin, I had 2 reactions.

1.) This is way too dark and depressing for me. I quit.
2.) Screw this world, they deserved to get the Reckoners stomping all over them.

My definition of grimdark: "ridiculously dark and hopeless, written with the deliberate intent to make the setting as depressing as possible and to induce feelings of despair in both players and characters."

Those worlds? Utterly irredeemable. Fit only for languishing forgotten on some game store's back shelf for all eternity.

A properly dark setting (The Final Empire from Sanderson's Mistborn novels) is great, possibly awesome. "Grimdark" = hopeless, and that's a bag of crap.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501968Yes, but there's no hope of ever defeating the evil, or even keeping it at bay - Dark Powers are supreme rulers.

Then again, Ravenloft's more about the suffering of evil and the inescapable corruption of everything, and constant trials of heroes for such corruption.

Of course, one of the interpretations of the Dark Powers is that they ARE keeping evil at bay already. It's one big giant prison for evil guys that capture their attention.

Quote from: Rincewind1;501981I know about the jailers stuff, didn't know the latter. And true on D&D, but I dunno - I'm not some "canon hog", but killing DPs is a bit like killing Gods of Chaos in Warhammer - too much of a deal breaker.

Then again, if players pulled out enough epic shit...

Canon 2nd Edition adventure involved precisely that: Killing a Dark Lord (Duke Gundar, I believe it was).