For me the difference isn't that swords do less damage on a successful hit then an arrow or bolt, it's that with an accurately placed sword swing or thrust that would kill you, you have ways to mitigate the damage by parrying, dodging, etc.  In other words, the attacker executing a lethal attack is not the end of the process.

By comparison, an arrow or bolt isn't really something you parry or dodge, you take cover behind a shield.  As a result, an accurate shot from an archer is, on average, more deadly then an accurate melee attack, simply because there will be less successful defenses against it.

A quick, easy, and effective way to model this in the abstracted hit point model of D&D is...missile weapons do more damage.

For OD&D, it seems like a decent solution, once you get past the WTF! moment.

This would only make any sense at all if you really accurately modeled how difficult it is to get an accurate shot in; otherwise your quest for "realism" has just created an unrealistic situation where the archer is the greatest fighting man of history.

Its part of why I think realism is stupid.

RPGPundit

Quote from: DavetheLost;491486First, the concept of game balance is an outmoded fossil that no longer belongs in RPGs.

Don't ever go full retard.

QuoteSecond, do. You have. Personal experience with missile and/or melee weapons and combat?

Ask ankh hunter if the missile weapon rules in this game are "retarded". They quite accurately depict reality. If you do not miss your shot entirely it will most likely be fatal.

I know that a sword to the heart is just as lethal as an arrow to the heart.

QuoteWhy would swords persist over bows if bows are so much better?  Ever tried to use a bow indoors? Especially in a room with a low ceiling?  Ever tried to use a bow in the pouring rain?  You are aware that you cannot carry a bow for long periods of time strung? Carrying a bow with an arrow ready fully occupies both hands, a sword may be kept on your hip and quickly drawn when needed.

Ever tried to use a bow for defense when the enemy is closing to melee range? One shot if that is all you get. Better hope he doesn't have friends.

Bows are fragile, expensive, specialized pieces of equipment, and require training to use.  If you really want to know about the sword vs the bow, read some history. Or read Paradoxes of Defense by Silver. It is quite an eye opener.

And do the rules model this, or are bows just really awesome?  Because I'm betting bows are just really awesome and swords suck.

QuoteIn short, RPG trolls whose only experience comes from Hollywoetd movies and too much D&D as opposed to real world experience with the things modeled in RPGs are retarded.

HE DISAGREES WITH ME, HE MUST BE A TROLL!!!!!

QuoteAlso BT your use of the words moronic and retarded is as offensive as tossing around the word nigger.

Pretty sure retarded people don't know enough to get offended.

QuoteDo you personally know anyone with an IQ below 70? This is the current clinical standard for "retarded", I do. They are fine peole.

It is not so much that I care one way or the other about the game. But I do care about civil discourse, and you sir, have crossed the line.

Has Tangency invaded us?

Hidehi people,

Just a note from the designer of the game here to clarify some things that may be worrying people about the lethality of missile weapons (and other things)!

We didn't design the game with full on realism intended. After all, it's a fantasy Elizabethan game. On the other hand, I'm a bit of an armchair historian, as well as having experience in the use of many of the weapons of the period; so I wanted the combat system to reflect a certain amount of realism without clunking everything up (because otherwise I'd cringe every time I roll the dice). The game is intended to run fast, and with a certain amount of shooting from the hip on the part of the referee, to have too much complication would cause problems there. We think we managed to achieve the balance that we aimed for here.

Another thing to bear in mind is that this is the period in which missile weapons were becoming more and more the key in military engagements. They were powerful, and effective. However, they did have their limitations, as they do in Backswords & Bucklers.

First of all, weapons such as the longbow require a lot of training. Something that most characters in Backswords & Bucklers aren't likely to have. Only Fighting Men get it, and only if they choose the weapon as their free one at the start of the game.

Secondly, weapons such as the Caliver are expensive to buy and run. And more importantly (alongside the arbalest) they take some time to reload. Remember too that in B&B you rarely have better than a 50:50 chance to hit. If you miss with your caliver and don't have some sort of back-up then you are likely to receive a sudden education in the situational advantages of weapons.

Thirdly, Backswords & Bucklers is primarily about urban encounters. Given the speed at which such things happen, the likelihood of anyone making use of missile weapons without plenty of planning is quite slim. Making them good for sniping, ambushing and scaring the living snot out of people. But a bad choice for when some bugger thumps you on the shoulder and then attempts to stick his dagger in your guts.

Fourthly, if you try casually wandering around London with a loaded arbalest, the watch will take some interest in you.

Fifthly, using any sort of powder weapon indoors is a really bad idea. Unless you want everyone deaf, blind with smoke and unable to get away from a smell that seems to have come from the devils arse itself. Which can actually be quite useful sometimes.

So, given that hit points do mostly represent your ability to turn a killing blow away, and that is much harder if someone puts a shot in the right place, and that hand-to-hand is more reliable and has more back-and-forth, and given the above considerations it seems absolutely right to me to have them do 1d6 per level damage (the same damage a sneak attack does by the by).

However, given that this an OSR game, it's supremely easy to tinker with. If you don't like the missile weapon d6 per level weapon damage, don't use it. It won't break the game. Although it will make missile weapons pretty useless beyond first level. Anyway, point is, it's your game. Just because the rules say something doesn't mean you have to play it that way.

On the speed of healing - Hit points don't represent real wounds as such. If you take a downright blow from a cutting weapon, that's when the healing stuff comes into it, and that is described in the rulebook. It's expensive, painful and often results in death instead. If you take a downright blow from a thrusting weapon, then you are dead and might just not know about it yet. This is to model, for example, how frequently both combatants in a rapier fight ended up dead, without too much complication. No, it doesn't take account of everything. Speed of play and all. If you want to make it more realistic, I'm not stopping you. I recommend a simple d6 chart that anyone could knock up in seconds. I believe there's one in X-Plorers actually that you could steal if I recall correctly. Or there's always Rolemaster.

On another subject, we hope to get the magic supplement out as soon as possible. It is, however, proving to be more work than any other supplement that we are working on so this may take some time. There is so much fascinating stuff from Elizabethan mythology to put in there that it's a difficult process trying to balance that with the simplicity and speed of play that Backswords requires. I can confirm that alongside the traditional Elizabethan magical subjects such as astrology, necromancy, alchemy and so on there will also be things such as Clockwork to fit the Moorcock style. In the meantime, you can always use the magic-user from any other OSR game with some modification. Just give them 100XP per spell level for a spell they manage to cast in a useful way in play. If they spend a week doing nothing but study they can make a Saving Throw, and for each point they succeed the roll by they get 100 XP. You'll have to figure out the starting equipment for yourself I'm afraid.

Anyhow, hope those who've given the game a try have enjoyed it as much as we do, and those that haven't have at least managed to steal some ideas from it for their own games! The tavern trawling style is certainly usable in pretty much any game.

I have to say, that is an excellent defense of your game/product, dude. Well done!

RPGPundit

Cheers man! I wasn't meaning it to be all defensive-like though. Just people seemed to be put off by the missile thing without having yet seen the context!

Did you write GnomeMurdered too? Epic.

So, I noticed that there doesn't seem to be any difference between using a one-handed weapon like a backsword and a two handed weapon like a bill. Is it intentional that the 'best' armament is one that can be used with a buckler, or is the general thinking that the GM will adjucate bonuses for times when a polearm might be more useful?

Things like that are situational. We describe the weapons in the booklet so the referee knows what the weapons are which allows him to adjudicate how they can be used. It's not generally a flat bonus. But there are things you can do with a bill that you can't with a backsword (hooking people off of horses for example).

It's not in the rules, but what I generally do is grant initiative in combat to a weapon with an obvious advantage. So, if a billman and a swordsman both knew each other was there and engaged each other from outside of their reach, the bill would get the first strike. If, on the other hand, a spearman and a daggerman engaged each other up close (a discussion gotten out of hand for example) the dagger would get the first strike.

Another thing to bear in mind is what weapons are acceptable to carry about in certain situations. In a low tavern people might not bat an eyelid about you lugging in your caliver and blood encrusted cudgel, but if you want to move about in higher circles you wouldn't be acceptable without a rapier or a broadsword (which is going out of fashion, and will remain so until the civil war). And carting about heavy ordnance in the streets is likely to bring unwanted attention your way too.

All of this assumes a certain type of campaign of course, it can work differently elsewhere. But the point remains that most things like that can only be reasonably modelled through referee fiat. Anything else starts to pile up all sorts of complication. Where you stop with the complication is down to individual taste of course, and we are adding more combat options into a supplement for the Fighting Man for those that want to use them. For example, a complete new initiative system that relies on controlling the fight instead of the usual I Go You Go system.

Quote from: NorseOnAKite;498857Cheers man! I wasn't meaning it to be all defensive-like though. Just people seemed to be put off by the missile thing without having yet seen the context!

Did you write GnomeMurdered too? Epic.

I am indeed the writer of Gnomemurdered. I'm glad if you liked it.

RPGPundit