Quote from: The Traveller;481236Only by computer gamers (not programmers mind you) that hadn't clue one what they were talking about, since it means the exact opposite.


The only thing right in this sentence is "child's sandbox". Walled garden. Limited space where you can do limited things. Whatever some hack from Dragon might have been under the impression it meant, it didn't mean imaginative freedom.


I don't understand what needs to be hashed out. Its like having a discussion over a typo.

You are nitpicking about language. Language evolves. In the last twenty years sandbox has been extended to mean computers that are setup to be a limited test environment, games that offer free-ranging environments, and now a style of running a RPG campaign.

Myself and those on the Wilderlands design team had no idea that it would catch on when we started using sandbox to describe what we did with the hexcrawl style maps.

I suppose you have issues with hexcrawl which is a recently invented term as well.

Quote from: The Traveller;481236stuff

You can argue about language use, etymology or computer programming as much as you please. Meanwhile, we will be over here designing and playing sandbox campaigns.

Quote from: The Traveller;481236Only by computer gamers (not programmers mind you) that hadn't clue one what they were talking about, since it means the exact opposite.


The only thing right in this sentence is "child's sandbox". Walled garden. Limited space where you can do limited things. Whatever some hack from Dragon might have been under the impression it meant, it didn't mean imaginative freedom.


I don't understand what needs to be hashed out. Its like having a discussion over a typo.

It is possible for a single word to mean different things in different contexts. In all honesty, programmers ripped it off from little children out in the yard, so if they can use it to mean what they want, we can use it to mean what we fucking want too. If we and anyone else wanna use the term for this, what's it to you? Don't like it, too fucking bad, elitist jerk-off. Go back to debugging in your sandbox.

Quote from: estar;481247I suppose you have issues with hexcrawl which is a recently invented term as well.

Hexcrawls are awesome, though I prefer using drawn maps with a piece of string or a ruler for that more authentic feeling. They do come into their own when you're doing territorial warfare style stuff though, makes it handier to track whose flag is flying where.

Quote from: Melan;481250You can argue about language use, etymology or computer programming as much as you please. Meanwhile, we will be over here designing and playing sandbox campaigns.

What gets me is that some of the defintions used in the thread so far are actually bang on correct. Just seems like a waste of effort arguing round in circles after something when a) there's not much agreement on what it means and b) even if there was it wouldn't really do much anyway. It all seems a bit Forge-ey, and effort that could be used actually having fun playing games. I'm not much of a theory man myself to be honest, it's too easy. Creativity, real imagination, now that's hard.

Quote from: Sigmund;481252It is possible for a single word to mean different things in different contexts. In all honesty, programmers ripped it off from little children out in the yard, so if they can use it to mean what they want, we can use it to mean what we fucking want too. If we and anyone else wanna use the term for this, what's it to you? Don't like it, too fucking bad, elitist jerk-off. Go back to debugging in your sandbox.

Sorry man, I just prefer to save my freewheeling bullshit for the descriptive prose.

Quote from: estar;481247You are nitpicking about language. Language evolves. In the last twenty years sandbox has been extended to mean computers that are setup to be a limited test environment, games that offer free-ranging environments, and now a style of running a RPG campaign.

Myself and those on the Wilderlands design team had no idea that it would catch on when we started using sandbox to describe what we did with the hexcrawl style maps.

I suppose you have issues with hexcrawl which is a recently invented term as well.

Indeed.
 
One suspects regional, company, and industry derivations.
 
'sandbox' was is full use in rpg terminology in my area in the mid/late 80's (as I have mentioned before) and always meant the open, player driven environment in the crpg world as well.

Doesn't mean anyone else is wrong, just means our environmental Venn diagrams were not Intersecting.

Quote from: The Traveller;481256Hexcrawls are awesome, though I prefer using drawn maps with a piece of string or a ruler for that more authentic feeling. They do come into their own when you're doing territorial warfare style stuff though, makes it handier to track whose flag is flying where.


What gets me is that some of the defintions used in the thread so far are actually bang on correct. Just seems like a waste of effort arguing round in circles after something when a) there's not much agreement on what it means and b) even if there was it wouldn't really do much anyway. It all seems a bit Forge-ey, and effort that could be used actually having fun playing games. I'm not much of a theory man myself to be honest, it's too easy. Creativity, real imagination, now that's hard.


Sorry man, I just prefer to save my freewheeling bullshit for the descriptive prose.

Why do you imagine you are the one who gets to decide which definitions are "correct"? Why would you imagine roleplayers should have to use the same definitions for terms used in jargon as computer programmers? Why would you imagine anyone gives a fuck what you would save "freewheeling bullshit", or anything else for that matter, for? RPGers have been using the term "sandbox" the way estar uses it for a long while now. If you have a problem with that, it's your fucking problem. I'd appreciate it if you would stop threadcrapping with this computer programming bullshit. Language evolves, words like "sandbox", "gay", "surf", etc.. change. Get over it.

Quote from: Sigmund;481262RPGers have been using the term "sandbox" the way estar uses it for a long while now.

Have they really? So why are there a half dozen different definitions wafting around the thread, most of which contradict each other?

Now I'm fairly sure from your posting history that you aren't particularly interested in a discussion, more in seeing who can act like the biggest internet hardman by introducing the most profanity into a sentence, so I'll just say please learn to use the "enter" key, it's the second biggest on your keyboard, and it makes reading your posts much easier. Paragraphs my friend, now there's a nitpick we could all learn from.

Quote from: The Traveller;481265Have they really? So why are there a half dozen different definitions wafting around the thread, most of which contradict each other?

Now I'm fairly sure from your posting history that you aren't particularly interested in a discussion, more in seeing who can act like the biggest internet hardman by introducing the most profanity into a sentence, so I'll just say please learn to use the "enter" key, it's the second biggest on your keyboard, and it makes reading your posts much easier. Paragraphs my friend, now there's a nitpick we could all learn from.

Wtf are you asking me for? Ask the people you think are contradicting the most commonly used definition. We've had quite a few discussions around this forum about "sandbox" games and we've been having them for quite a while now. Where were you before?

You don't know me from Adam, and you also aren't looking at my posting history very hard, or you'd know your little attempt at insulting me won't work. Funny how the guy who comes into a thread to crap all over it and be a troll tries so hard to make the guy calling him out for it look like the one in the wrong... that happens so often I'm starting to think there's a threadcrapping school you assholes go to. Oh, and I use profanity so pussies like you will get your little panties in a bunch over it, it's funny when people make such an issue over mere words. This is the way I talk.. here, on the phone, and in real life. If you can't handle it, once again, that's your problem. If you want to think that's me being "the biggest internet hardman", go right ahead, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it. I'd be perfectly happy to provide you with my contact info though. You can call me and I'll tell you over the phone you're being a cock. Wanna stop by my work? I'll tell you face-to-face you're being a cock. You want to talk about the topic? Rock on then, otherwise you're going to be treated like the threadcrapping cock you're being.

Quote from: Sigmund;481267Wtf are you asking me for? Ask the people you think are contradicting the most commonly used definition. We've had quite a few discussions around this forum about "sandbox" games and we've been having them for quite a while now. Where were you before?

You don't know me from Adam, and you also aren't looking at my posting history very hard, or you'd know your little attempt at insulting me won't work. Funny how the guy who comes into a thread to crap all over it and be a troll tries so hard to make the guy calling him out for it look like the one in the wrong... that happens so often I'm starting to think there's a threadcrapping school you assholes go to. Oh, and I use profanity so pussies like you will get your little panties in a bunch over it, it's funny when people make such an issue over mere words. This is the way I talk.. here, on the phone, and in real life. If you can't handle it, once again, that's your problem. If you want to think that's me being "the biggest internet hardman", go right ahead, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it. I'd be perfectly happy to provide you with my contact info though. You can call me and I'll tell you over the phone you're being a cock. Wanna stop by my work? I'll tell you face-to-face you're being a cock. You want to talk about the topic? Rock on then, otherwise you're going to be treated like the threadcrapping cock you're being.

Dearie me, some people just can't take a compliment. I was suggesting the use of paragraphs so I could further enjoy your delightful posts. What an angry man.

Anyway, I'm not quite sure, but I think that might be death threat number 4.

Quote from: The Traveller;481273Dearie me, some people just can't take a compliment. I was suggesting the use of paragraphs so I could further enjoy your delightful posts. What an angry man.

Anyway, I'm not quite sure, but I think that might be death threat number 4.

Over-dramatic much? At least you're not threadcrapping anymore. Insulting me might at least provide folks with some amusement, unlike you being an elitist over terms computer programmers use.

Quote from: Sigmund;481277Over-dramatic much? At least you're not threadcrapping anymore. Insulting me might at least provide folks with some amusement, unlike you being an elitist over terms computer programmers use.

No quite seriously, three of them so far this week. I think the last guy was just a random dick, but the other two sounded like they meant business. The topic of the thread my friend is "Why or What this "Sandbox" thingy." I provided an answer so we could all shake hands and move on, plus banter, and some people disagree, which is fine by me.

Quote from: The Traveller;481278No quite seriously, three of them so far this week. I think the last guy was just a random dick, but the other two sounded like they meant business. The topic of the thread my friend is "Why or What this "Sandbox" thingy." I provided an answer so we could all shake hands and move on, plus banter, and some people disagree, which is fine by me.

You didn't post about "Why or What this 'Sandbox' thingy", you posted about how we are all using the term "sandbox" wrong. If you can't tell the difference perhaps further education is in order. Gamerdude was asking what we are refferring to when we talk about "sandbox" RPGing. How about answering that in the context of the thread, without all the threadcrapping bullshit about how nobody else in the thread knows what they are talking about. Or, keep insulting me, at least you might get lucky and post something funny. I have a meeting to go to, enjoy.

Quote from: Sigmund;481279I have a meeting to go to, enjoy.

Always do...

Quote from: The Traveller;481256Hexcrawls are awesome, though I prefer using drawn maps with a piece of string or a ruler for that more authentic feeling. They do come into their own when you're doing territorial warfare style stuff though, makes it handier to track whose flag is flying where.

Glad you enjoy the format. I try to do my part in popularizing them (i.e. Points of Light, Blackmarsh, etc)

Quote from: The Traveller;481256What gets me is that some of the defintions used in the thread so far are actually bang on correct. Just seems like a waste of effort arguing round in circles after something when a) there's not much agreement on what it means and b) even if there was it wouldn't really do much anyway. It all seems a bit Forge-ey, and effort that could be used actually having fun playing games. I'm not much of a theory man myself to be honest, it's too easy. Creativity, real imagination, now that's hard.

I try keep clear of Forge land by focusing on practical advice that I have actually used myself. I don't claim what I do is the ultimate form of roleplaying, but good techniques if you want to do X, Y,  and/or Z for your game.

I ran running boffer LARP events for over 10 years and in live-action roleplaying you are forced to run linear plots because you can't physically move props, setups, and people around fact enough to replicate what is normally done around a tabletop.

Because of this I developed an understanding of other styles of play, and lose what "one true wayism" I had about the way I referee.

I don't talk much about other styles because sandbox is where my expertise is. Where I have the most to teach, write and talk about.

Quote from: The Traveller;481265Have they really? So why are there a half dozen different definitions wafting around the thread, most of which contradict each other?

Because it is a relatively new area of discussion despite it's origins at the beginning of the hobby.  Serious discussion on sandbox campaigns only started around 2006-2007.  It was only last year (2010) that people started talking about managing sandbox campaigns. Folks noticed there were reports about sandbox campaigns failing.   "World in Motion" was coined by LordVreeg and quickly adopted by myself and others only last year.

So it not unexpected that the situation is the way you described it.

For my part I am writing a book on it that I hope to release next year. It going to take a while because I want individual parts to be useful in of themselves rather than some Ron Edwards style philosophical musing.

For example not only I will talk about mapping but include an appendix on how to use Inkscape for mapping (a free and open vector drawing software). So if the buyer get nothing else out of the book they have a decent tutorial for drawing maps.

Since I am publishing as part of my hobby I don't release things until I feel they are done right rather than trying to chase some market fad or meet monthly bills .