Some people say that you can have a sandbox campaign/adventure with scripted "set pieces" like a highway robbery event, or an orc camp that the players run across whenever they are in an appropriate place. I've used this technique when I was having an off night.

Ultimately, though, I think the truest sandbox is where the players have the ability to go anywhere on the map at will and face the consequences or rewards. When I've felt most like I was running a sandbox, the highway robbery happened as a result of something that the players had encountered; like a despotic baron putting the screws to peasant class while leaving merchants untouched; and the orc camp was there because it was written at those coordinates on the map. In other words, everything that happened was "written on the map" literally or figuratively. In a good sandbox campaign, there is always new stuff to do, because what they do drives what opportunities arise. With or without those opportunities, the can make their own goals, and as they do things, the ripples turn the games into a campaign.

Quote from: GamerDude;479394Then maybe some enlightenment in your oh so polite knowledge?

Scripted vs not?  

Actually looking at the resources in the thread I pointed to, the "sandbox" has no adventure, no goals... it is just the "place to play" there is no real adventure preset.

Y'know polite but empty answers mean nothing.  Scripted? you mean linear? or railroading? (both if you mean the original Dragonlance modules). What if exploration is part of the finding the answer. Are "dungeons" scripted or just linear or are they just "sandboxes with filling"?

At least I explained my viewpoint, not just one tiny incomplete (to me) answer with a few "yeah what he said" and one "pat on another posters back".

I think it has come up as a term to disguinguish play where exploration and character freedom are paramount. In a sandbox the players are under no pressure to go where the GM wants them to go or follow the plot the GM wants them to follow. So I think it has both to do with how the GM preps and how the game itself is played.

Personally I find the label useful. There are definitely several other ways to approach the game (and sandbox isn't really how I run most games--though I suppose I use elements of the style). It can be helpful for a group to put a label on the kind of adventure they are looking for (in the same way that it can be handy to say you want RPG heavy or hack n slash).  I've seen a bunch of other labels emerge over the years to describe everything from the focus of the game to the way it is played and they are useful so long as you don't allow yourself to be restricted by them or forget that there is more than one way to describe the same kind of play. Labels like this are fine IMO. The only time I take issue when them is when they are used in an exclusionary way to make others feel like they know less than you do about RPGs.

Sandbox game:

Make a map. Put a bunch of points of interest on it (say, 7-10). Avoid having some house-on-fire, must-be-addressed situation (if the Evil Overlord is marching on Hobbit-Town, and doing anything but stopping him will end the game, it's not much of a sandbox).

Then give the map to the PC's and ask them what they do.

In my view, that's a sandbox.

Couple of notes: it doesn't even have to be a literal map. If the PC's are at a fancy dress ball, and there are a dozen NPC's who are interesting (have quests, or trouble, or other scenarios, or whatever), that could be a map. In that the case, the question isn't so much "where do you go?" but "who do you talk to?"

Another note: Optimally, if the PC's go somewhere you didn't have an encounter for, you come up with something based on the framework established. In the game I'm running now, the PC's skipped the dungeon in front of them and went to find a bar to start a fight in. I obliged with a fight, and figured they'd attract the attention of the local aristocrats.

I think the core to the sandbox is

1) Not having much of a plan (or at least not a short-term one)
2) Having enough interesting stuff in the game so that the PC's won't spend all their time in Boring Town unless they go find the one dungeon (scenario) you plotted out.

Cheers,
-E.

My definition of sandbox:


Here's a map of the area. It may be divided up into hexes. There are a bunch of encounters already placed. Now the players wander around as they will and do the adventures that they actually run into. I may have them hear rumors that will lead them in a preferred direction, but they are free to ignore them.

Quote from: GamerDude;479378I've been watching the thread: Published examples of sandbox style? with my usual dismay over all this 'sandbox' strangeness, and have a few thoughts. Instead of posting there I figured I'd start something new.

See I "get" this sandbox thing, meaning I understand the concept being bandied about so meaninglessly. Why do I say that? Because ANY setting is by definition a "sandbox".  It is a place to exist that has specific boundaries. But really when does a "sandbox" stop being a "sandbox" when it is the size of:

The term sandbox in the context of settings was used by the development team of the Wilderlands Boxed set to describe what you use it for. I didn't come up with the term. I don't remember who first used it. But we all started using it afterwards.

The basic idea that the keyed hex format make it easier for the referee adjudicate the players wandering the landscape than the traditional travelogue format that 90% of settings used.

Most of us on the boxed set project stuck with the Wilderlands for 20+ years used variants of the sandbox campaign. As a consequence we found it useful for more than just adjudicating wandering the landscape.

We picked the term sandbox from computer games as it applied to games that allowed the player free rein of the gameworld. That usage seemed to be the most useful for describing what we did with the wilderlands.

However it is also some confusing as sandbox used in other contexts. As shown in the comments to my answer on stackexchange. (It is the second one from the bottom)
http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/662/what-is-sandbox-play

However the Wilderlands team was the first to use it to describe a style of campaign play.

Why we made a distinction is that in the 70s nobody knew how to publish a setting. The earliest example were Tekumel, Greyhawk and the Wilderlands.  Tekumel and more importantly Greyhawk were written in a travelogue format. The Wilderlands used a keyed hex map, similar to Traveller (although it came out a nearly the same time, so I don't think they are related).

Because of the prominence of the Greyhawk folio, the travelogue format became the dominant method of publishing a setting. The keyed hex format was little used.

For me personally one of my main interests in publishing is to revived the keyed hex fomat.

There been issues with people starting their own sandbox campaigns with more failing and succeeding.  That because there to much focus on the players wandering the landscape. The heart of the sandbox campaign is that it is driven by the player's choice rather than the referee's plot. Wandering the landscape is just one example of a sandbox campaign although one that very easy to understand.

So I been slowly putting together a book on the sandbox campaign, blogging and posting various ideas to see what folks think. My goal is to make explain clearly all that you can do with a sandbox campaign where it is the player's choices that drive the action rather than plot.

Quote from: GamerDude;479378Because ANY setting is by definition a "sandbox".  It is a place to exist that has specific boundaries. But really when does a "sandbox" stop being a "sandbox" when it is the size of:

Before the wilderlands boxed set, before computer games, sandbox was used in gaming to refer to the field of play. It comes from the literal sandbox that miniature wargamers use for battlefields.

For example in Dragon Issue #247 on page 123 we see this "Grubb has a phrase for working with existing games, settings, and characters: playing in other people's sandboxes." Later we see "Having gone freelance three years ago, Grubb has explored new sandboxes."

So it understandable why there confusion over the term

Quote from: GamerDude;479378So is an adventure or setting or campaign I write considered a 'sandbox adventure' if the area is limited to say size #1 through #4, or can it be as large as say #6?  Is there some kind of concurrence in the industry how big an area the adventure/setting can be and still be considered a "sandbox".

It a style of campaign where it's the player's choice the drive the action not the referee's plot. What plot is the events of the setting that swirl around the players for them to interact with or not. The creativity of the referee comes in play from thinking how the setting's NPCs and other entities react to what the players do.  Picking from various plausible consequences the most interesting.

Quote from: GamerDude;479378To me the tossing around this term 'sandbox' is some way of sounding fancy and technical, just the way companies like Microsoft (and magazines) went from saying "Internet Based" to "The Cloud" to sound sexy new fresh.

Well it was used to sell a very expensive boxed set, so you are half right. But the other half is that it is a style of play that many don't know about and that seen little support since Judges Guild went out of business. And the hobby can always use more choices.

Quote from: GamerDude;479394Actually looking at the resources in the thread I pointed to, the "sandbox" has no adventure, no goals... it is just the "place to play" there is no real adventure preset.

The adventure comes from the referee setting up a situation where interesting adventures can happen. It vague because there are a diversity of things that can be combined to make an interesting place to adventure in. Also different groups has a different idea of what they find interesting.

I successfully ran a campaign where everybody was a member of the city-guard. And a campaign where the players wandered the landscape which is the traditional view of a sandbox campaign.

Quote from: GamerDude;479394Are "dungeons" scripted or just linear or are they just "sandboxes with filling"?

Locales are places to adventure in. They can be anything that used for roleplaying to date.  In fact many referee running sandbox campaign keep a stack of modules, encounters, etc on hand to pull from when the players do something totally unexpected and they need to put together something quickly on the fly.

Quote from: GamerDude;479394At least I explained my viewpoint, not just one tiny incomplete (to me) answer with a few "yeah what he said" and one "pat on another posters back".

I am considered by many to be one of the major proponents of the sandbox campaign style so I hope my explanations are clearer.

Quote from: LordVreeg;479414This does not mean they cannot be important, succesful, etc, quite the opposite.  They exist in a world where events have weight and velocity, but their actions can actually effect and change the direction of the events.  We have often called this creating the "World in Motion".

An one you invented and I happily swiped for my own use. It is a great term to describe this. Again thanks.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;479407A sandbox game is one in which the DM creates and fleshes out a setting which the PCs explore. The PCs set and strive to accomplish their own goals, with the DM playing a reactive role. It contrasts with scripted campaigns in generally not having a singular overarching conflict or goal that PCs are trying to resolve or accomplish at any given time.

Now THAT is a reply that answers my question.

Thank you!

And now I know what my campaigns "are": Monstrous maxiumum strength sandboxes with tons of 'scripted' locations and hooks scattered throughout the sandbox that the PC's can grab or not (of course if they don't grab some, the evil mountain of doom shall spew again and the hordes of legions shall reign their terror across the lands).  *grin*

Quote from: GamerDude;479624Now THAT is a reply that answers my question.

Thank you!

And now I know what my campaigns "are": Monstrous maxiumum strength sandboxes with tons of 'scripted' locations and hooks scattered throughout the sandbox that the PC's can grab or not (of course if they don't grab some, the evil mountain of doom shall spew again and the hordes of legions shall reign their terror across the lands).  *grin*

then this was a good thread.
Who'd have thunk it?

Quote from: GamerDude;479624And now I know what my campaigns "are": Monstrous maxiumum strength sandboxes with tons of 'scripted' locations and hooks scattered throughout the sandbox that the PC's can grab or not (of course if they don't grab some, the evil mountain of doom shall spew again and the hordes of legions shall reign their terror across the lands).  *grin*

I'll send my finest musician into the hills to blow a fanfare 'cross the lands.

Quote from: estar;479592Well it was used to sell a very expensive boxed set

Mind you, it cost me less than I paid for the Neverwinter Campaign Setting hardback last month!  :eek:

Quote from: LordVreeg;479632then this was a good thread.
Who'd have thunk it?

This... was a gud.. con-ver-sa-shun. (The Last Samurai - one of my absolutely favorite movies).

I wonder... you know I'm a fan of the sandbox style; and yet.. is it really fair to judge that the success of travelogue over hex-description settings was a question of just "early adoption"?  You make it sound like it was really a random fluke that RPG settings went one way and not the other, but could the reason really have been that more people overall felt they got more out of the former than the latter?

RPGPundit

Quote from: LordVreeg;479414No, there can be adventures present and lots to do...but the 'SAndbox' game is based on the GM allowing the players to go where they want, explore what is interesting, go into tangents that may not be expected, without trying to put them back on track.
The SAndbox GM needs to create the feel that the characters are part of a world that will exist and move with or without them.  This does not mean they cannot be important, succesful, etc, quite the opposite.  They exist in a world where events have weight and velocity, but their actions can actually effect and change the direction of the events.  We have often called this creating the "World in Motion".
The Sandbox type of gameplay infers that the GM will reflect the reaction that the setting has to the players actions, without trying to coerce certain actions out of the players.

This is a good explanation. The sandbox game provides opportunities/events for the players to take and react to but these are largely optional. It also reacts to the players initiative and actions. It works particularly well in crime games and is the most realistic set up to to run those games.