I've been watching the thread: Published examples of sandbox style? with my usual dismay over all this 'sandbox' strangeness, and have a few thoughts. Instead of posting there I figured I'd start something new.

See I "get" this sandbox thing, meaning I understand the concept being bandied about so meaninglessly. Why do I say that? Because ANY setting is by definition a "sandbox".  It is a place to exist that has specific boundaries. But really when does a "sandbox" stop being a "sandbox" when it is the size of:

• What I grew up with calling a city block (say 100ft x 100ft)?
• A neighborhood (a square mile or two)
• A small town/keep (upwards of 20 square miles)
• A small city (upwards of 500 square miles)
• A significant portion of a continent (several thousand square miles)
• An entire continent (North America, EU, or AUS?)
• An entire planet? (Earth, Minbari, Rigel, Regina?)
• A significant portion of Space? (sub-sector or even sector in Traveller?)
• A single arm of a galaxy?
• A single total galaxy?
• The Universe?

So is an adventure or setting or campaign I write considered a 'sandbox adventure' if the area is limited to say size #1 through #4, or can it be as large as say #6?  Is there some kind of concurrence in the industry how big an area the adventure/setting can be and still be considered a "sandbox".

OR
Is the "sandbox" just a single self contained "adventure", no matter how far around a setting you travel?

Basically I see this: *EVERY* adventure is a 'sandbox adventure'. Why? Because it frames in and restricts the scope of where the characters can go, what they can do. Doesn't matter the size or shape of the actual area defining, by the fact it is an adventure with a clearly defined and limited scope means it is a 'soapbox' adventure.

To me the tossing around this term 'sandbox' is some way of sounding fancy and technical, just the way companies like Microsoft (and magazines) went from saying "Internet Based" to "The Cloud" to sound sexy new fresh.

Everything's a sandbox.... whether it's that 3 ft x 3 ft box your parents put in your back yard, or the 20 ft x 20 ft one at the local park.

I believe, but claim no authority, that your list entries 1. through 11. are all sandbox if your adventures revolve around open exploration.  It implies exploration directed by the players, instead of a more closed, scripted scenario like Ravenloft or others that occur in a relatively controlled setting.

You do not understand the concept of "sandbox play".

Vmerc is correct for once. Sandbox play is not a definition of the campaign's area, but of a way that play is structured.

Bingo.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;479384Vmerc is correct for once.

And you are pleasant, as always.

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;479384You do not understand the concept of "sandbox play".

Vmerc is correct for once. Sandbox play is not a definition of the campaign's area, but of a way that play is structured.

Then maybe some enlightenment in your oh so polite knowledge?

Scripted vs not?  

Actually looking at the resources in the thread I pointed to, the "sandbox" has no adventure, no goals... it is just the "place to play" there is no real adventure preset.

Y'know polite but empty answers mean nothing.  Scripted? you mean linear? or railroading? (both if you mean the original Dragonlance modules). What if exploration is part of the finding the answer. Are "dungeons" scripted or just linear or are they just "sandboxes with filling"?

At least I explained my viewpoint, not just one tiny incomplete (to me) answer with a few "yeah what he said" and one "pat on another posters back".

Quote from: GamerDude;479394Y'know polite but empty answers mean nothing.  .

Polite but empty is all I've got, Jack.  Just ask Pseudo.  Scripted's in the dictionary and I ain't got one of those.  Ask anyone.

A sandbox game is one in which the DM creates and fleshes out a setting which the PCs explore. The PCs set and strive to accomplish their own goals, with the DM playing a reactive role. It contrasts with scripted campaigns in generally not having a singular overarching conflict or goal that PCs are trying to resolve or accomplish at any given time.

The West Marches are a well known example.

You can even have an over plot in sand box: it's just that the players can walk from it or access it to do a quest in a different way.

My computer just crashed and won't start. Fuck. Typing on an iPod sucks.

Quote from: GamerDude;479394Then maybe some enlightenment in your oh so polite knowledge?

Scripted vs not?  

Actually looking at the resources in the thread I pointed to, the "sandbox" has no adventure, no goals... it is just the "place to play" there is no real adventure preset.

Y'know polite but empty answers mean nothing.  Scripted? you mean linear? or railroading? (both if you mean the original Dragonlance modules). What if exploration is part of the finding the answer. Are "dungeons" scripted or just linear or are they just "sandboxes with filling"?

At least I explained my viewpoint, not just one tiny incomplete (to me) answer with a few "yeah what he said" and one "pat on another posters back".

No, there can be adventures present and lots to do...but the 'SAndbox' game is based on the GM allowing the players to go where they want, explore what is interesting, go into tangents that may not be expected, without trying to put them back on track.
The SAndbox GM needs to create the feel that the characters are part of a world that will exist and move with or without them.  This does not mean they cannot be important, succesful, etc, quite the opposite.  They exist in a world where events have weight and velocity, but their actions can actually effect and change the direction of the events.  We have often called this creating the "World in Motion".
The Sandbox type of gameplay infers that the GM will reflect the reaction that the setting has to the players actions, without trying to coerce certain actions out of the players.

When one talks of a sandbox games, there are elements that can be scripted. There are also elements that follow specific plots and plotlines.

With a normal adventure or setting there are two or three interwoven plot lines. Progress players make are easily defined by specific goals and rewards, usually created by the GM prior to a session. It's not quite a railroad, however it is narrowly focused and deals with only a small subset of player goals and objectives. Most adventure modules fall into this category.

Sandbox games on the other hand are defined by many more goals and objectives. The GM usually creates a large number of plotlines and populates the gaming world with many mixed encounters for these plotlines so that the players have more options to choose from than time to complete. The open-ended nature creates a world that is more believeable and it is easier to become immersed because the world contains more than the players can concieve. Add to the mix a generous heaping of random encounters that will auto-generate new plotlines and you have your sandbox campaign.

Often many of the encounters and plots the GM creates are never used for the players and the game. Some of these unused plot lines and encounters will affect the game time line however, it will also affect NPC's, and ultimately the players, whether they choose to participate or not. This adds an additional game element that is not present in normal adventures.

Sandbox. The richest gaming environment, a world in motion around the players where even the players lack of, or outright refusal to make any decision, may affect the outcome of the game.

The nice thing about a sandbox is you can easily fit in one or more traditional adventures that are more narrowly focused. You can't fit a sandbox into many of the modules or more narrowly defined campaigns however, without breaking the player's suspension of belief that is necessary for immersion.

The most useful definition of the term "sandbox" that I've heard is this: "Allowing players to choose the scenario."

In other words, you get a sandbox when the entire world is designed as a situation, allowing the players to decide what their next adventure will be.

The opposite of a sandbox is an adventure path (where the players are expected to follow the planned sequence of adventures). The extreme opposite is starting each session by saying, "You've just entered the dungeon I prepped for this week's game. Whaddya doin'?"

(Most campaigns, of course, aren't going to be hanging out at the extreme ends of this spectrum.)

The geographic size in which the campaign is taking place is pretty much irrelevant to whether or not it's a sandbox. Your adventure path can criss-cross a galaxy without ever giving meaningful scenario choice to the players; and I've run highly successful sandboxes which have been confined to a single city.

Another place where confusion tends to arise is that people treat "railroad" and "sandbox" as opposites of each other. This tends to distort the meaning of both terms. (If you're curious about this, I can expound at greater length.)

Quote from: GamerDude;479378See I "get" this sandbox thing, meaning I understand the concept being bandied about so meaninglessly. Why do I say that? Because ANY setting is by definition a "sandbox".  

But scene-by-scene railroads are not sandbox campaigns.  Right?

I'm trying to imagine it:

"This scene is a sandbox!  You are free to raise, or nor raise, your right eyebrow at the Lasombra vampire.  Not at the Brujah though, he's a Prince and your PC knows that raising an eyebrow would be disrespectful..."

Quote from: Vmerc@;479381I believe, but claim no authority, that your list entries 1. through 11. are all sandbox if your adventures revolve around open exploration.  It implies exploration directed by the players, instead of a more closed, scripted scenario like Ravenloft or others that occur in a relatively controlled setting.

That's right.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;479438The opposite of a sandbox is an adventure path (where the players are expected to follow the planned sequence of adventures). The extreme opposite is starting each session by saying, "You've just entered the dungeon I prepped for this week's game. Whaddya doin'?"

If only that were the extreme opposite Justin, the world would be a much happier place!  Check out the OP in this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=311549

Edit: Many people would consider Moldvay/Mentzer Basic D&D style "You've just entered this week's dungeon" as a form of sandbox play, albeit the sandbox is on the small side, being just a one-week dungeon.