I support that you're not using the mazes and minotaurs game, which I think is horribly over-rated; though I do think there may be individual ideas you can mine from it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: JgantsI went back and forth (and back and forth again) on the orator thing. I was thinking of it more in terms of a Homer type scholar and philosopher than an inspiring warrior poet. Mainly I just wanted to offer another option. I suspect no one will actually use it (as opposed to the Hunter and Barbarian roles, which I know particular players will want to use the archetype).

Yeah, I actually created my Orator to be a charisma based class.  He fights like the rogue does in most ways.
My orator is a little more flexible in that he has almost as good lore skills as a Scholar, but he also can choose a little spell ability (priest or scholar) every other level, as well as the best abilities for attracting followers, bluffing, and making social CC rolls.

In play so far, I've had a 2 groups have characters get to 4th level.  The orator's ability to attract more followers (which are men at arms in this game) is critical.

Quote from: jgants;470420* I'm adding weapon specialization for fighters, because basic D&D fighters kind of pale compared to the other classes IMO.

Have you looked at Akrasia's house rules for S&W, specifically Fighting Styles for Fighters? I like them better than weapon specialization, as I find them more flexible than weapon spec, and I feel they can be seamlessly integrated on a B/X or BECMI ruleset.

Quote from: jgants;470420* A cleric gets "Banish Chthonics" instead of "Turn Undead"

Interesting. What sort of creatures get the "Chtonic" tag?

Quote from: jgants;470420* Thieves get the thieves cant language and the read languages ability. And pick pockets is now "cut purse" (with no pockets in tunics and all).

The "cut purse" skill is smart, and would've never occured to me.

I've never been keen on "read languages" as a thief skill; I just don't usually picture thieves as learned, or even literate types.

Quote from: jgants;470420* I'm adding new classes in for barbarian, hunter, and orator (simplified versions of the AD&D barbarian, ranger, and bard - 2e version - classes)

Barbarian and Hunter sound like a great fit for your game.

Orator is one I'm not to sure about. I'd give it an even more "Classical Greek" spin, to try and make it feel really distionct, yet fulfilling the same role as the traditional Bard. What exactly do you have in mind? I'd consider a full-blown scholar (Philosopher?), or aristocrat/politician/agora rat (Demagogue?), or better still, a wandering poet a la Homer (Mythagogue?).

Quote from: jgants;470420* I'm extending the spell lists a little to add in some of the Metzner spells and a few from AD&D.

Which ones do you have in mind?

Quote from: jgants;470420* I'm getting rid of alignment

Pity. I'd rename Lawful "Olympian", and Chaotic "Titanic" (or "Chtonic", as you've used above?) and play the Law/Chaos dichotomy along the lines of enlightened Hellenic civilization vs. the benighted barbarians and the forgotten horrors of the ancient, Titan-ruled "Golden Age".

But then again, I do subscribe to a rather cavalier, Rientsian "team jersey" view on alignment.

Quote from: jgants;470420My campaign world is basically a fantasy version of 500 BC.  I was thinking of starting off with an adventure where the PCs are heading with troops into battle against the rival "Xersian Empire" when their trireme hits a storm and they crash into a remote island.  Then, they'll have to go explore the old caves where the navigator disappeared to, which will have ancient Minoan-esque ruins, monsters, etc.

Looks like a great setup to me! Consider it stolen for future use.

Quote from: jgants;470420Anybody have any thoughts / suggestions?

For a Bronze Age D&D campaign, I'd consider an "armor as damage reduction" subsystem; I'd substitute AC for "Defense" or somesuch, a static score (or even a bonus to a d20 roll, Palladium-like) which would replace AC as the target of the attack roll, and which would increase with level; while at the same time ruling that armor gives the wearer damage reduction, at a fixed (say, 2) or random (1d4) amount of points subtracted from a damage roll.

For even more fun, you could give armor a number of HP and keep track of reduced damaged as damage to the suit, which would be rendered useless at 0 HP. Forcing your PCs to spend some of that hard-earned gold on repairs, of course... and Zeus help you if your +2 breastplate needs repair; sorcerous assistance might be necessary.

Quote from: The Butcher;470603Have you looked at Akrasia's house rules for S&W, specifically Fighting Styles for Fighters? I like them better than weapon specialization, as I find them more flexible than weapon spec, and I feel they can be seamlessly integrated on a B/X or BECMI ruleset.

I hadn't looked at those before, but I'll check it out.

Quote from: The Butcher;470603Interesting. What sort of creatures get the "Chtonic" tag?

I had a combined approach of some re-skinning, and some blending up myths to create creatures equivalent to the standard D&D undead.  I thought the term "undead" sounded too modern and thought the ancient Greek concept of "Chthonic", meaning "pretty much anything from the Greek underworld", sounded too cool not to use.

To keep things more or less equivalent to regular D&D, here's how I listed them out.

Skeletons are still skeletons.

I struggled with zombies.  The zombie concept is modern, but the idea of reanimating a non-skeleton means you pretty much have to have them. So, I horribly butchered up some Greek to create "Ptomanathos" - which only in my mind roughly translates to "the corpse that will not die".

D&D ghouls became Persian... er Xersian... ghuls.

Medieval Greeks had a myth about a creature called a "vrykolkas", which is sort-of considered to be equivalent to a vampire (an evil spirit that inhabits the body of a recently dead sinner or something).  I thought it sounded more like a wight, so I stole the name and am making it just an evil spirit inhabiting a corpse.

Theres the keres, the death spirits.  I equated them with wraiths.

Mummies are staying but only for the Egypt region.

Ghosts became Shades.

Then I took some proper evil gods/spirits/demons and made them into generic monsters: the Empusa (which I'm equating to spectres), the Lamia (I'm using them for the vampire equivalent), and the Eurynomous (which is a daimon somewhere in Lich territory of powers).

Quote from: The Butcher;470603I've never been keen on "read languages" as a thief skill; I just don't usually picture thieves as learned, or even literate types.

I see it more as "get the general gist of" rather than actually being literate. Like being able to see markings on an ancient tomb and going "something here about an evil curse..." or whatever.  To me it fits with the archetype of tomb robbing or trying to follow ancient maps to hidden treasure.

Quote from: The Butcher;470603Which ones do you have in mind?

Mostly first level stuff.  I switched out Command for Know Alignment for the Cleric.  And the BECMI spells let me get 8 spell choices per cleric level.

For magic-users, I padded out the first level with a bunch of common AD&D spells (burning hands, jump, spiderclimb, etc) so that it got to 20 options, then used the BECMI spells to get 12 options per magic-user level.

Quote from: The Butcher;470603For a Bronze Age D&D campaign, I'd consider an "armor as damage reduction" subsystem; I'd substitute AC for "Defense" or somesuch, a static score (or even a bonus to a d20 roll, Palladium-like) which would replace AC as the target of the attack roll, and which would increase with level; while at the same time ruling that armor gives the wearer damage reduction, at a fixed (say, 2) or random (1d4) amount of points subtracted from a damage roll.

For even more fun, you could give armor a number of HP and keep track of reduced damaged as damage to the suit, which would be rendered useless at 0 HP. Forcing your PCs to spend some of that hard-earned gold on repairs, of course... and Zeus help you if your +2 breastplate needs repair; sorcerous assistance might be necessary.

I definately don't want to do the armor as HP option - when my Rifts campaign used that model there was endless whining about having to repair the armor all the time.

I like armor as damage reduction in theory, but in practice I've found I prefer the quicker, simpler AC method.

Quote from: jgants;470610I had a combined approach of some re-skinning, and some blending up myths to create creatures equivalent to the standard D&D undead.  I thought the term "undead" sounded too modern and thought the ancient Greek concept of "Chthonic", meaning "pretty much anything from the Greek underworld", sounded too cool not to use.

To keep things more or less equivalent to regular D&D, here's how I listed them out.

Good stuff. Thanks for posting that! When it comes to campaign flavor, a little bit of reskinning goes a long way.

Quote from: jgants;470610I definately don't want to do the armor as HP option - when my Rifts campaign used that model there was endless whining about having to repair the armor all the time.

Armor repair bills (and, to a lesser degree, ammunition) are the #1 credits drain on Rifts parties. We used to joke that it ain't Rifts if you're not mortgaging your Glitter Boy to pay for its own repair.

I don't think the problem would be half as bad in a fantasy game, though, especially B/X D&D with treasure handed out RAW.

Quote from: jgants;470610I like armor as damage reduction in theory, but in practice I've found I prefer the quicker, simpler AC method.

Fair enough; I prefer good, old-fashioned AC as well. But for a Bronze Age game, I'd consider an "armor as HP" or "armor as DR" system, as featured in d20 variants such as Mongoose Conan and Iron Heroes, because for most editions (especially TSR-era/pre-3e), unarmored (or lightly armored) warriors suck. I feel this is a partial fix and it allows PCs to play their warrior-types as nimble battle-dancers rather than lumbering, iron-clad dreadnoughts.

I have to agree that Mazes & Minotaurs would seem to be a perfect fit.

I can offer a 3E suggestion that might give you some ideas though: Relics & Rituals Olympus (Sword & Sorcery). I thought it was quite good.

Yeah, I use dr and ac with my bronze age stuff.

Ca 1200-1100 BCE is the collapse and end of the Bronze Age and begining of the Iron Age.

I am currently running Mazes and Minotaurs and think quite highly of it.  I think it would be much improved by a "Third Edition" that pulled together all the additions, options etc, streamlined them into the main rules, and dropped the constant editorial satire of the alternate history of RPGs.

For D&D gaming references for the bronze age Green Ronin had a version of Troy, there is of course d20 Ancients, and Firery Dragon has a campaign sourcebook and counter set for the "New Argonaughts", think of the PCs as the successors of Jason & Co.

I think one of the BEMCI boxed settings sets was also bronze age in feel.  Over all it shouldn't require a lot of rules changes. Bronze armour against bronze weapons is roughly equivalent to steel armour against steel weapons.  In fact steel weapons and armour give you the option of non-magical +1/+2 swords etc.

Have you looked at the New Argonauts and poirted any ideas from there back into your game?

I'm still looking the New Argonauts over; I haven't had a chance to read it in depth yet.  But I'm sure I'll find something useful there.  And I may check out some of the other sourcebooks people mentioned if I have a chance (Friday was a really long work day and I have a wedding to go to this weekend so it may be awhile).

One thing I've noticed about a lot of "Ancient Greece" style games and sourcebooks, including the New Argonauts as well as TSR's own Age of Heroes, is the idea that you need to roll back the magic.  I find that assumption rather odd, as most of the standard D&D magic using types don't really fit the medieval myths (or most fantasy novels) either.

Rules-wise I'm pretty comfortable with what I have now, keeping the basic feel of D&D.  I'm cool with stuff like armor, magic, and demi-human characters working pretty much the same as they do in standard D&D.

What I'm going for here is more akin to Mazes and Monsters idea of having a D&D world set in its own age of classical antiquity, rather than actually re-creating the actual mythology stories.

That said, as mentioned previously, I am using Earth circa 500 BC as the starting point for my fantasy world.  The reason for that is simple - I find the various factions that existed at the time interesting and don't want to bother creating an entirely new world on my own.

I recommend Pathfinder E6 just because I've been running Bronze Age with it for a long time. Here are my basic guys:

Persia

Peasant Levy
STR   13
DEX   10
CON   13
HP   7
AC   13   Padded Armor, Light Shield
Attack      Spear +2 Strike, 1d8+1 Damage
Ranged      Short Bow +1 Strike, 1d6 Damage

Professional Light Infantry
STR   14
DEX   12
CON   14
HP   12
AC   15   Leather Armor, Light Wicker Shield, Shield Spec, Dex +1
Attack      Nimble Spear +4 Strike, 1d8+4 Damage or Short Sword +3 Strike, 1d6+2 Damage
Ranged      Short Recurve Bow +2 Strike, 1d6 +2 Damage
Feats      Weapon Focus Spear, Shield Specialization, Power Attack, Furious Assault

Professional Light Spearman
STR   14
DEX   12
CON   14
HP   12   
AC   13   Leather Armor, Dex +1
Attack      Martial Long Spear +4 Strike, 2d6+4 Damage
Feats      Weapon Focus Spear, Furious Assault, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes

Professional Archer
STR   14
DEX   14
CON   12
HP   11
AC   13   Padded Armor, Dex +2
Attack      Short Sword +2 Strike, 1d6+2 Damage
Ranged      Short Recurve Bow +4 Strike, 1d6+2 Damage
Feats      Weapon Focus Bow, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Rapid Shot
Notes      Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot not added to stats.

Professional Shield Bearer
STR   14
DEX   12
CON   14
HP   12
AC   18   Leather Armor, Wicker Tower Shield, Shield Focus, Dex +1
Attack      Martial Short Spear (2) +1 Strike, 1d8+2 Damage
Range      Thrown Spear +1 Strike, 1d8+2 Damage
Feats      Combat Reflexes, Body Guard, Shield Focus, Saving Shield
Notes      While in formation, their AC goes to 22 and they can aid another to raise it to 24.

Professional Heavy Infantry
STR   14
DEX   12
CON   14
HP   12
AC   19   Bronze Curias +6, Dex +1, Light Wicker Shield, Shield Spec
Attack      Nimble Spear +4 Strike, 1d8+4 Damage or Short Sword +3 Strike, 1d6+4 Damage
Ranged      Short Recurve Bow +2 Strike, 1d6+2 Damage
Feats      Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Furious Assault, Shield Spec

Zathurm Calvary
STR   14
DEX   14
CON   14
HP   12
AC   22   Iron Curias +6, Large Bronze Shield, Shield Spec, Dex +2, Heavy Pommel
Melee      Sagaris +3 Strike (+6 vs. Armored Soldiers), 2d6+4 Damage
      Martial Short Spear (2) Strike +3 Stabbing or Throwing, Damage 1d6+4
      Short Sword Strike +3, 1d6+4 Damage
Ranged      Short Recurve Bow +3 Strike, 1d6 +2 Damage
Feats      Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Furious Assault, Power Attack
Notes      When attacking infantry from horseback, add higher ground bonus.

Equipment:
Beautiful Masterwork Sagaris of Work Hardened Iron with Simple Crossbar and Heavy Pommel
Hardness 12, Hitpoints 20, Add +2 CMD vs. Disarms, 2d6 Damage, +2 Strike Armored Targets, No Critical Hits, Huge Penalties on Foot, Add +2 Diplomacy and Intimidation

Two Spears, Short Sword, Short Bow, 120 Arrows, Iron Curias, Bronze Shield and Helmet

Heavy Warhorse: HP 19, AC 20  (+4 Dex, –1 size, +2 natural, +5 Bronze Scale Barding), Speed 35

The Companions
STR   14
DEX   14
CON    14
HP   20
AC   20   Scale Mail +5, Heavy Wicker Shield, Shield Spec, Dex +2
Attack      Beautiful Masterwork Martial Short Spear (2) +6 Strike, 1d8+4 Damage  
Short Sword +4 Strike, 1d6+4 Damage
Ranged      Short Recurve Bow +4 Strike, 1d6+2 Damage
Thrown Spear+6 Strike, 1d8+4 Damage
Feats:      Spear Focus, Shield Spec, Power Attack, Furious Assault, Improved Bullrush

Equipment:   Beautiful Masterwork Spears, Masterwork Composite Bows, Masterwork Armor, Masterwork Short Swords

Greek

Heavy Hoplite
STR   14
DEX   12
CON   14
HP   12
AC   20   Bronze Curias+6, Bronze Greaves & Bronze Helm +1, Heavy Bronze Shield, Dex +1
Melee      Martial Long Spear +3 Strike, 1d10+2 Damage
      Short Sword +3 Strike, 1d6+2 Damage
Feats      Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Coordinated Maneuvers, Phalanx Training
Notes       Power Attack not included.
      CMB for Bull Rush increases to +7 in formation.
      While in formation and power attacking, add +1 Strike, +2 Damage, +2 AC.

Armor Notes
The primary difference between hoplites is the value of the armor that they can afford. The most popular kind of armor is Linothorax, which is a combination of layered quilted armor and bronze scales. This type of armor is much more prevalent, adding +5 AC for a regular AC total of 19.

Light Hoplites
STR   14
DEX   14
CON   12
HP   11
AC   15   Heavy Bronze Shield, Shield Focus, Dex +2,
Melee      Martial Long Spear +3 Strike, 1d10+2 Damage
      Short Sword +3 Strike, 1d6+2 Damage
Feats      Saving Shield, Shield Focus, Shield Wall, Power Attack
Notes       Power Attack not included.
      Light Hoplites, men who are unable to afford heavy armor, train to protect one another.
      While in formation, Light Hoplites have an AC of 19.

Elite Hoplite (Spartan)
STR   14
DEX   14
CON   14
HP   20
AC   21   Bronze Curias+6, Bronze Greaves & Bronze Helm +1, Heavy Bronze Shield, Dex +2
Melee      Martial Long Spear +4 Strike, 1d10+2 Damage
      Short Sword +4 Strike, 1d6+2 Damage
Feats      Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Coordinated Maneuvers, Phalanx Training
Special - Bullrush Strike
Notes       Power Attack not included in stats.
      CMB for Bull Rush increases to +8 in formation.
      While in formation and power attacking, add +1 Strike, +2 Damage, +2 AC.

Arab

Hezzesheol: Nomadic Mounted Warrior
For Mount – See Herd Animal – Camel on pg 154 of Bestiary 2

STR 12
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 10

HP 12
AC 17 Base 10, Armored Coat +4, Dex +2, Light Wooden Shield +1 (May Substitute Scale +5 or Chain Shirt +4 for Armored Coat)

BAB +1
CMB +4
CMD 14

Melee Attack (w/o mounted or power attacking modifiers): Straight Long Sword +3 Strike, Damage 1d8+1, Crit 19+
Ranged Attack: Short Bow +3 Strike, 1d6+1 Damage

Feats and Abilities

Mounted Combat
Mounted Archery
Power Attack
Weapon Focus – Long Sword

New Feats

Phalanx Training
Prerequisite: Base Attack Bonus +1, Coordinated Maneuvers, Power Attack, Improved Bullrush

While fighting in an intact phalanx formation, each man gains a +2 Circumstance bonus to AC and Strike.

New Weapons and Equipment

Martial Short Spear

Damage   1d8
Critical      x2
Type      Piercing
Ability Reach
Special      Nimble – Can be used at short range without penalty.

Martial Long Spear

Damage   2d6 Two Handed or 1d10 One Handed
Critical      x3
Type      Piercing
Special      Reach

Horseman’s Mace of Work Hardened Iron with Simple Crossbar and Heavy Pommel

Hardness 10, Hitpoints 15, Add +2 CMD vs. Disarms, 2d6 Damage, +2 Strike Armored Targets, No Critical Hits, Huge Penalties on Foot

Wicker Tower Shield

This shield adds +4 to AC or can be used as cover. The shield is equipped with a stand so that it can support itself while an archer uses it as cover.

Linothorax

This armored shirt is made of many layers of quilted material, leather and bronze scale. It is the most popular type of armor among Hoplite warriors.

Statistics and Price: Same as Scale Mail

Cuirass

A cuirass is a thin armor, made of iron or bronze, which protects the chest and back with a pair of plates connected through a series of straps. The cuirass is the heaviest armor of the day. Its attributes and price are equivalent to a Breast Plate.

Grieves and Helm

Hoplite warriors are known for their bronze grieves which armor their shins and sturdy bronze helms. By protecting a greater portion of their body, they gain a slight bonus to their AC of +1.

A pair of grieves costs 20 gold. The helmet costs another 20.

Quote from: jgants;470855One thing I've noticed about a lot of "Ancient Greece" style games and sourcebooks, including the New Argonauts as well as TSR's own Age of Heroes, is the idea that you need to roll back the magic.  I find that assumption rather odd, as most of the standard D&D magic using types don't really fit the medieval myths (or most fantasy novels) either.

D&D is such a horrible everything-in-the-blender concept that you have The Dying Earth's magic system tossed in with the Song of Roland (paladins), Roman priests of Diana/The Riddle-Master of Hed (druids) and the Knights Templar (clerics).

If you want to narrow your setting definition down to just Mythic Greece (and not the D&D kitchen sink approach) then yeah, there's not going to be much PC magic.  It's not there in the source.

If you want to add it back in and stay within theme, I've seen some treatments simply define all spellcasters as priests of a specific god, who grants them supernatural powers as long as they're doing the Good Work.  The few traditional witches and such that you do see in Greek myth either aren't mortal to start with or are acolytes of goddesses like Hecate, who grant them the magical knowledge.

Quote from: daniel_ream;470928I've seen some treatments simply define all spellcasters as priests of a specific god, who grants them supernatural powers as long as they're doing the Good Work.  The few traditional witches and such that you do see in Greek myth either aren't mortal to start with or are acolytes of goddesses like Hecate, who grant them the magical knowledge.

How is this outside of D&D's normal workings?

Quote from: Cranewings;470940How is this outside of D&D's normal workings?

It's not, if you assume all casters are clerics, can cast arcane and divine spells, don't get armor or weapon proficiency, and have no specific bonuses to being healbots.  Spells/day also doesn't fit the source.

You'd have to roll some kind of custom class, at best.

Quote from: daniel_ream;470945It's not, if you assume all casters are clerics, can cast arcane and divine spells, don't get armor or weapon proficiency, and have no specific bonuses to being healbots.  Spells/day also doesn't fit the source.

You'd have to roll some kind of custom class, at best.

Again, Akrasia's got you covered. Except for spells/day but that's really, really easy to houserule into some sort of spell-point system.

I understand your point; D&D wasn't created to be The Ultimate Fantasy Emulator. Nonetheless, its framework is relatively easy to houserule and twist into new shapes that better suit what you have in mind. Not only is it a great intellectual exercise, but because D&D is the lingua franca of our hobby, it's often easier on players and GM alike, than to pick up a new game. It also plays with players' expectations to increase the surprise and novelty factors, when you get an old dog to do new tricks.

Just my 2c.