My 4e campaign is winding down with the big climax coming up.  The timing worked out that everyone will end up paragon level right around the time they take down the big bad threatening to destroy the world so it just made sense to end it.


For my next campaign, I'm going old school.  Not because I think the games are superior, but because it is a better fit for what I have in mind (plus I want something a bit simpler for a while).  I'm going Bronze Age - a campaign based on a Titan Quest / Age of Mythology / Odyssey / Clash of the Titans kind of feel.

My core rules will be the Moldvay/Cook Basic/Expert sets, but I wanted to add in some AD&D-isms as well as changing some of the flavor to a more Classical Antiquity feel.

* Instead of elves, dwarves, and halflings I'll have nymphs, centaurs, and satyrs.
* I'm adding weapon specialization for fighters, because basic D&D fighters kind of pale compared to the other classes IMO.
* A cleric gets "Banish Chthonics" instead of "Turn Undead"
* Thieves get the thieves cant language and the read languages ability. And pick pockets is now "cut purse" (with no pockets in tunics and all).
* Magic-users become "sorcerers" instead of "wizards" and I'm explaining the whole magic thing as being the "secrets of lost atlantis".
* I'm adding new classes in for barbarian, hunter, and orator (simplified versions of the AD&D barbarian, ranger, and bard - 2e version - classes)
* I'm extending the spell lists a little to add in some of the Metzner spells and a few from AD&D.
* The weapons listed is pared back to remove all the medieval stuff.

And then there's a couple rules I'm just changing because either I or the players don't care for the classical ones:
* AC will be ascending
* I'm getting rid of alignment
* Ability scores will be purchased (similar to 4e)
* Hit points will be static per level (similar to 4e)


My campaign world is basically a fantasy version of 500 BC.  I was thinking of starting off with an adventure where the PCs are heading with troops into battle against the rival "Xersian Empire" when their trireme hits a storm and they crash into a remote island.  Then, they'll have to go explore the old caves where the navigator disappeared to, which will have ancient Minoan-esque ruins, monsters, etc.


Anybody have any thoughts / suggestions?

Sounds pretty cool. You might want to check out "Mazes and Minotaurs" for ideas, if you haven't already.

The big issue I have with D&D and Greeks is armor class. The PC's will be getting hit all the time, unless you have them wandering around in full hoplite gear, which was ungodly expensive at the time.

Quote from: jgants;470420Not because I think the games are superior, but because it is a better fit for what I have in mind (plus I want something a bit simpler for a while).

Have you looked at Mazes and Minotaurs? It's a "what if... OD&D was vaguely based on Greek myth, rather than vaguely European fantasy?" game.

It might need a bit of hacking, and it'll have a different feel, but if you're hacking anyway...

Quote from: danbuter;470421Sounds pretty cool. You might want to check out "Mazes and Minotaurs" for ideas, if you haven't already.

The big issue I have with D&D and Greeks is armor class. The PC's will be getting hit all the time, unless you have them wandering around in full hoplite gear, which was ungodly expensive at the time.

I have looked at M&M. But the half-serious, half-parody nature, combined with changing all the terms for things, kind of put me off reading it in depth.  Still, I will mine it for ideas.


For AC, I was going to keep leather, add in studded leather (which would be 1 point lower than chainmail), and the hoplite-type bronze armor (whcih would be 1 point lower than platemail).  I go back and forth on whether I should just have them be the equivalent of chainmail and platemail (since those don't exist in the setting, there's no real balance issue though it would be more sim-friendly to have them be a little worse than their iron equivalents).

Quote* A cleric gets "Banish Chthonics" instead of "Turn Undead"

Its been a long day - I thought that said "Banish Catholics" at first.

Another suggestion is to make shields better, since so many Greek stories have the hero running around with a shield and helmet and not much else.

small shield +2 AC
large shield +3 AC
helmet maybe +1 AC

Quote from: Werekoala;470426Its been a long day - I thought that said "Banish Catholics" at first.

That was a laugh I needed.

Quote from: danbuter;470427Another suggestion is to make shields better, since so many Greek stories have the hero running around with a shield and helmet and not much else.

small shield +2 AC
large shield +3 AC
helmet maybe +1 AC

that's because Shileds ARE better than most systems make them.  Good Ideas.

BTW, it is interesting that the only new ruleset/variant I have written in the last 6 years was my bronze age stuff.

I always do a few things differently, but I like where your head is at.

Fighting Man
Scholar
Priest
Rogue
Orator

are the classes I used.


For races, I went all humans,
            
The Heldras are the people of the large, temperate peninsula area you are in, and are 80% of the population.* They are smart, industrious, and organized.            
The Scythics are rare here, tall, dark warriors from the old cultures of the far south, below the Gyptic Sea.* They are honorable spearmen, and used to hot temperatures.*
            
The Nords are the tall, wide proud, pale barbarians of the far east and north, seafarers and tribal nature worshippers.
            
The Perja are the dusky,crafty warriors of the ancient and huge Ankan and Jeritus.* Organized and used to travel, they are excellent charioteers and horsemen.   
         
The Dennites are the Children of Caleb's law, tribes of thin, wiry-haired merchants and explorers who follow the strange way of Caleb, their prophet of a few centuries before.
            
The Maccis are the thick, swarthy hillmen of the Northern hills and valleys.* Shepherds and nomads, they are excellent with slings and bows.  They are interbred heavily with the Heldras to the North.

Quote from: jgants;470420* I'm adding weapon specialization for fighters, because basic D&D fighters kind of pale compared to the other classes IMO.

Are you using the Rules Cyclopedia/BEMCI weapon mastery rules, or are you retro-fitting ADnD fighter weapon specialization? As I recall, the weapon mastery rules could give you some truly ridiculous bonuses as time went on. Depending on how high the levels get, it might be something to consider.

For me, Mazes & Minotaurs has been awesome for Bronze Age D&D and I have run two mini-campaigns with it. The "jokey" part of the game is only in the sidebars, not the game rules which are really well done to emulate the importance of spear, helm and shield.

Also, its "Almost-D&D-But-Not" feel is a boon because the rules familiarity puts players at ease while the differences help get the players out of the rut of D&Disms that sometimes plagues gamers who have played in various D&D settings.  

Also there is a shit ton of free resources.

Quote from: danbuter;470427Another suggestion is to make shields better, since so many Greek stories have the hero running around with a shield and helmet and not much else.

small shield +2 AC
large shield +3 AC
helmet maybe +1 AC

How about swapping shields and armour around - your Shield Class is mainly determined by your, er, shield, being topped up by a couple of points by your armour? You'll need to reskin things a bit, and swap around the price lists, but those aren't major problems.

It even makes the Dex bonus to Shield Class more obvious, because it represents getting the shield in the right place in time (As well as being more nimble on your feet to avoid blows entirely), and it makes "single hand or double hand weapon?" a harder choice, as you lose more by losing your shield arm.

Quote from: jgants;470420Anybody have any thoughts / suggestions?

Overall this sounds good. I know this is going to be a nitpick, but 500 BC isn't really the bronze age; it's already the era of classical athens. Of course, there is nothing wrong with casting the more familiar classical world in kind of a bronze age drag to evoke a more mythical era. I have certainly done so.

I would consider just giving folding the Orator class elements into the fighter; really the great heroic orators are primarily warriors already. On the other hand you do have the odd magician-mystic character like Orpheus. But otherwise I don't really see the D&D bard as a very aegean kind of character.

I agree with the others who suggest you might want to improve the shield roles especially if you want to support the heroes wandering around with shield+'heroic nude' so to speak. One option might be letting fighters only bearing a shield shield to get a "shield block saving throw" once per round. That's a big advantage but if you want to power up the fighter class that might be an option.

The Good Assyrian had a thread about bronze age fantasy about a month back, here: Bronze Age Fantasy - What does it look like to you?

Quote from: Cole;470455Overall this sounds good. I know this is going to be a nitpick, but 500 BC isn't really the bronze age; it's already the era of classical athens. Of course, there is nothing wrong with casting the more familiar classical world in kind of a bronze age drag to evoke a more mythical era. I have certainly done so.

I would consider just giving folding the Orator class elements into the fighter; really the great heroic orators are primarily warriors already. On the other hand you do have the odd magician-mystic character like Orpheus. But otherwise I don't really see the D&D bard as a very aegean kind of character.

I agree with the others who suggest you might want to improve the shield roles especially if you want to support the heroes wandering around with shield+'heroic nude' so to speak. One option might be letting fighters only bearing a shield shield to get a "shield block saving throw" once per round. That's a big advantage but if you want to power up the fighter class that might be an option.

The Good Assyrian had a thread about bronze age fantasy about a month back, here: Bronze Age Fantasy - What does it look like to you?

I added 'potential protection' to armor, and a 'use protection' skill that went up with levels, at +1 per every other fighter level.  So without the armor, the warrior could not use it, but a wealthy nobleman and a 6th level warrior might both have Scale armor and a large shield and both have the same armor class, but the 6th level warrior can also use 3 of the 4 protential protection of that armor.

Quote from: Rubio;470441Are you using the Rules Cyclopedia/BEMCI weapon mastery rules, or are you retro-fitting ADnD fighter weapon specialization? As I recall, the weapon mastery rules could give you some truly ridiculous bonuses as time went on. Depending on how high the levels get, it might be something to consider.

I thought the BEMCI weapon mastery rules were a bit much, so I just want to use the AD&D 2e weapon specialization version of +1 to hit, +2 to damage and then have it increase to the mastery level (from combat and tactics) of +3 to each starting at 9th level.

Quote from: LordVreeg;470433that's because Shileds ARE better than most systems make them.  Good Ideas.

The shield ideas are cool.  I may just go the light shield / heavy shield route like 4e, where heavy shield would be the hoplite style and give +2, while light would be the lighter wicker style used by the persians, etc.

Quote from: Spinachcat;470442For me, Mazes & Minotaurs has been awesome for Bronze Age D&D and I have run two mini-campaigns with it. The "jokey" part of the game is only in the sidebars, not the game rules which are really well done to emulate the importance of spear, helm and shield.

Also, its "Almost-D&D-But-Not" feel is a boon because the rules familiarity puts players at ease while the differences help get the players out of the rut of D&Disms that sometimes plagues gamers who have played in various D&D settings.  

Also there is a shit ton of free resources.

Yeah, I can see that... but I still think I'll stick with D&D because I'm more comfortable with it and the players are more comfortable with it, which will mean I get less resistance to the idea.

Quote from: Cole;470455Overall this sounds good. I know this is going to be a nitpick, but 500 BC isn't really the bronze age; it's already the era of classical athens. Of course, there is nothing wrong with casting the more familiar classical world in kind of a bronze age drag to evoke a more mythical era. I have certainly done so.

I would consider just giving folding the Orator class elements into the fighter; really the great heroic orators are primarily warriors already. On the other hand you do have the odd magician-mystic character like Orpheus. But otherwise I don't really see the D&D bard as a very aegean kind of character.

Yeah, I picked "500 BC" largely because it was a nice round number and was right before the whole Alexandrian Macedonia thing.  I also wanted the Persian Wars to be part of the setting (since one of the players is a big 300 fan).  I'm basically mashing together stuff from 1500 BC to 500 BC, the same way regular D&D does with 500 AD to 1500 AD.  


I went back and forth (and back and forth again) on the orator thing.  I was thinking of it more in terms of a Homer type scholar and philosopher than an inspiring warrior poet.  Mainly I just wanted to offer another option.  I suspect no one will actually use it (as opposed to the Hunter and Barbarian roles, which I know particular players will want to use the archetype).