Quote from: estar;467985This is the Harnmaster Combat Card http://www.columbiagames.com/resources/4001/harnmaster-combattables.pdf

This is what it feels like to unearth the mysteries of Cthulhu.

Quote from: Yevla;468009I would also appreciate it if the basic GURPS books were marketed more as 'a toolkit to buil your own rpg' instead of a game in and of itself. That what it has always been, and is now in 4e more than ever.

4e is pretty much a complete package now. I would say the opposite; 3e and before was more of a tooklit, but 4e can literally do it all. Sourcebooks help, though.

QuoteGURPS as it is appeals to GMs and worldbuilders. It does not appeal to very many players (thus the need for genre books or settings).

What do genre books have to do with players? Apart from the templates, which are admittedly handy, but inevitibly incomplete as they represent only an overview of the GENRE, I think the genre books are more clearly aimed at the GM.

Setting books are of course fun for everyone.

Quote from: B.T.;468089This is what it feels like to unearth the mysteries of Cthulhu.

I think it actually would be kind of cool if the system for playing Call of Cthulhu drove the players insane.

It'd really help with immersion.

For the record, we tried Frank's idea at our yesterday's Delta Green game, and the experience was quite positive. Opposed rolls are just a breeze now, for example. My players were really satisfied, and so was I. So thanks for the idea, Frank.

Hmm...  Changing GURPS so that it works the same as another RPG.  

1) It's no longer GURPS if you do that.

2) GURPS can already play any genre with any characters on any world.

3) What was so terrible with the other RPG you were using that you felt you needed to fix GURPS?

4) There is no 4.

5) There's always that trade-off when publishers re-print RPG core rules with each new character class book released.  SJGames decided not to take that route by printing a core rulebook once (spit into two books so your arm doesn't break off) and then releasing additional skills, spells, advantages, disadvantages, etc, in add-on books that any GURPS player character can use.

The beauty of GURPS is there is no character class and no armor class, etc.  Characters can be and do anything they want to be and do in a GURPS universe (within GM's reason).  GURPS is a simulator.  Ever play Fallout 3?  GURPS is the same thing, only with more details for your character's growth than what Fallout 3 allowed for.

A lot of RPGs restrict what a character can do, learn to do, and attempt to do.  "My character shoots arrows.  Why, he could never do anything relating to magic!"  That's a limit right there.  And it's an artificial limit (carved into stone decades ago) so the DM can pigeon-hole each character into his/her game setting with less management fussing over.  It's like, "Oh, I get to play an elf again, since my last elf died.  So he's got this same default set of standards for his character, and this is all I will ever be or do in this game because I like what the elf can do... blah blah."

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;530911The beauty of GURPS is there is no character class and no armor class, etc.  Characters can be and do anything they want to be and do in a GURPS universe (within GM's reason).  GURPS is a simulator.  Ever play Fallout 3?  GURPS is the same thing, only with more details for your character's growth than what Fallout 3 allowed for.

GURPS 4e problem is one of presentation similar to the other 4e. In GURPS Case there are just too many options in the two Core Rulebooks. Don't get me wrong the core rulebooks are fine in every regard except for recruiting new players and getting them going in a GURPS Campaign.

I suggested several time over on the SJ Games forums that the best move for GURPS is to come out with three powered by GURPS RPGs; Fantasy, Horror, Science Fiction. Each are a single book with everything to needed to play. For example fantasy will have templates, monsters, items, spells, etc.

The books should cover what the leading competitor in that genre cover, for example Fantasy that is D&D. Horror, Call of Cthulu, etc. I am not saying that the powered by GURPS Fantasy RPG works like D&D. Only that it should have GURPS version of fighter, magic-users, +1 swords, crystal balls, bags of holding, orcs, dragons, etc.

The point isn't to compete with the leading competitor of each genre but show how GURPS can be IMPLEMENT to run the kind of game they like. In my experience when most players switch away from say D&D, they are still looking to play D&D but with X added or subtracted.

Back in the day GURPS 2nd Edition was largely oriented to fantasy roleplaying and light enough that the average D&D gamer of the time could see what it could offer. Then it was character customization and more realistic and deadlier combat.

While roleplaying games industry has decline GURPS had a larger relative fall due to the fact that the d20 system solved the issue of character customization for D&D. Then thanks to the d20 fad the base system was expanded to cover a broad range of genres. What GURPS has left is the fact it is a well designed, well researched, well written RPG that a wide range of different genres.

But none of that is going to have any effect is the players are going have wade through the core books to implement GURPS for their campaign. There are plenty of e23 PDF offerings and some print offerings that do a lot of the work but when stacked up against GURPS competitor in a given genre there is no comparison.

SJ Games reply has been that GURPS competes in the generic RPG space. Even there it not doing well. Sure Hero System is in trouble these days but the games that GURPS contend with are the d20 system and the family of FUDGE/FATE games along with Savage Worlds. And GURPS hasn't done well against them again because of the lack of a decent gateway book.

I like the GURPS system just fine. As long as Munchkin remains the big favorite over at SJ games, I wouldn't hold out much hope for very much GURPS support.

Quote from: estar;530968...the best move for GURPS is to come out with three powered by GURPS RPGs; Fantasy, Horror, Science Fiction. Each are a single book with everything to needed to play. For example fantasy will have templates, monsters, items, spells, etc.

Amen.

......nice Necro happening here....

So what some of you are REALLY saying is that actually kind of like GURPS 4/e - you just wanted it marketed or packaged differently.

Sounds  like you want SJG to imitate PINNACLE's marketing approach with SAVAGE WORLDS. You like the mini 'genre-books' - you just wish it was with GURPS 4/e instead.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;531025Sounds  like you want SJG to imitate PINNACLE's marketing approach with SAVAGE WORLDS. You like the mini 'genre-books' - you just wish it was with GURPS 4/e instead.

Pretty much except the rest of the line and the core rulebook should remain as is. If I was doing this project, each genre line would have the core book, two or three adventures written so that gamers of the leading competitor find them easy to use. Then stop there. After they are complete just continue as they have been.

At this point they have a lot of work done for certain lines. For example Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunter, etc. A genre book could be created by combining some of the releases into a coherent whole.

Note that in additional to Pinnacle, there is Chaosium and what it does with Basic Roleplaying. They tend to customize the base system a lot for the individual game.

Quote from: estar;530968GURPS 4e problem is one of presentation similar to the other 4e. In GURPS Case there are just too many options in the two Core Rulebooks. Don't get me wrong the core rulebooks are fine in every regard except for recruiting new players and getting them going in a GURPS Campaign.

In the book, it tells both first-time GMs and players to not get bogged down in all the skills and traits they have listed.  Otherwise, a game will never get started if players can't decided which to choose for their character.  A good GM will flat out say what the limits are so players can join in quickly.

Quote from: estar;530968I suggested several time over on the SJ Games forums that the best move for GURPS is to come out with three powered by GURPS RPGs; Fantasy, Horror, Science Fiction. Each are a single book with everything to needed to play. For example fantasy will have templates, monsters, items, spells, etc.

Then you run into GURPS rules that are shaved specifically for each genre.  And players need to buy all three books to have the complete rules.  Well heck, in the old days players would be buying GURPS books anyways like SPACE, FANTASY, HORROR.  But the core would be in one book instead of spread out in three.  SJGames is mostly Munchkins card games and PDFs now in this economy.  Fantasy Flight Games has the budget to make prettier books for its DH, BC, RT, OW RPGs (each with its version of core rules).  I guess all this would depend on wether a company is in the business of book selling or game selling.  WotC is in the book selling business for sure.

Quote from: estar;530968The books should cover what the leading competitor in that genre cover, for example Fantasy that is D&D. Horror, Call of Cthulu, etc. I am not saying that the powered by GURPS Fantasy RPG works like D&D. Only that it should have GURPS version of fighter, magic-users, +1 swords, crystal balls, bags of holding, orcs, dragons, etc.

People would not buy any "D&D powered by GURPS" books when there are "Official D&D" books to buy.  Plus, SJGames would have to buy licensing if their books at too similar to D&D characters.

Quote from: estar;530968The point isn't to compete with the leading competitor of each genre but show how GURPS can be IMPLEMENT to run the kind of game they like. In my experience when most players switch away from say D&D, they are still looking to play D&D but with X added or subtracted.

I'm not sure why people would move away from D&D if they still only want to play the D&D theme? It's a d20 system with class controls on characters.  They'll look at a simulator like GURPS and scratch their heads, not knowing what the restrictions are in the game.  They'll be looking for the one exact character that has that one skill they can level up to.  But GURPS doesn't work that way.  And there's no awesome d20 die for them to hold.

Quote from: estar;530968Back in the day GURPS 2nd Edition was largely oriented to fantasy roleplaying and light enough that the average D&D gamer of the time could see what it could offer. Then it was character customization and more realistic and deadlier combat.

Yes.  And D&D was still more popular than GURPS.  Always has been.  Always will be.  D&D is more popular than all other RPGs combined because the publishers always got their books out first (with amazing color artwork in each one).  It took years for other RPG companies to release a campaign book for their less popular systems (and they were not in color, and their art was only so so).  Fantasy Flight Games RPGs do so well because of their color artwork filled books.  The Harn System is probably one of the most realistic medieval RPGs.  But hardly anyone knows about it because a new hardcover book didn't come out for the system every month.

Quote from: estar;530968While roleplaying games industry has decline GURPS had a larger relative fall due to the fact that the d20 system solved the issue of character customization for D&D. Then thanks to the d20 fad the base system was expanded to cover a broad range of genres. What GURPS has left is the fact it is a well designed, well researched, well written RPG that a wide range of different genres.

I can see problems with GURPS as far as a GM not being able to create a world of his or her own that is as expansive as D&D's to play in.  It is too much work for one person.  D&D makes it easy for a DM to not have to create anything for a game.  So a hell of a lot more D&D games get played.

Quote from: estar;530968But none of that is going to have any effect is the players are going have wade through the core books to implement GURPS for their campaign. There are plenty of e23 PDF offerings and some print offerings that do a lot of the work but when stacked up against GURPS competitor in a given genre there is no comparison.

Fewer GURPS games being run for sure.  But the game experience is higher quality.  I still look around to see what new RPGs have been released.  I'll look through them (last night I looked through Stars Without Number).  I'll look at BR and BRP and Qin.  I do have all the Mongoose Traveller books, but they're used only for source ideas in GURPS.  I would not run a Traveller game using the 2d6 Traveller rules (even if they are updated from the 1979 rules).  I would use GURPS 4e.

By the way, I had Man to Man, GURPS 2nd and 3rd and 3rd Revised.  Didn't much care for them.  I putted around with it and with other RPG systems.  None of them had that magic that I was looking for though.  But I was patient and waited for GURPS's strength and health and fatigue and hit points to work right.  And GURPS 4e delivered.  GURPS stands out now from all the other generic RPGs.  It doesn't bother me if there is no "D&D" setting for GURPS, because I can make a D&D world of my own if I bothered to, or create any fantasy setting that has no player restrictions.

Quote from: estar;530968SJ Games reply has been that GURPS competes in the generic RPG space. Even there it not doing well. Sure Hero System is in trouble these days but the games that GURPS contend with are the d20 system and the family of FUDGE/FATE games along with Savage Worlds. And GURPS hasn't done well against them again because of the lack of a decent gateway book.

All RPGs are hurting now compared to the 1980 - 1995 years.  And all generic RPGs are hurting even more.  PDP-11's brought RPGing to the coffee table (computer programmers had to use pencil and paper when at home) and Windows 95 took coffee table RPGs away (RPGing is all done automatically on the cyperspace of the interweb now).  When I saw Wizardry and Ultima being played on the Apple ][+ in 1981, I thought this cannot be good for my Traveller playing (which was already falling behind new RPGs that were coming out).  I didn't like how players were using crumby computer graphics instead of their minds to see their adventures with.  I admit, there was a time when I looked at a pencil and a die at a table and thought how ancient.  But I snapped out of it and never fell for the Neverquest and WOW pay-as-you-play addiction scene.

If SJGame would stop with the stuffed Cthulhu toys and the Munchkins and produced only GURPS books (in hardcover with color artwork), of course GURPS would be king of the generic RPGs.  But Steve Jackson has convinced himself that no one cares about RPGing anymore just because he doesn't do it anymore.  So he doesn't have the staff to produce and print new books.  His money is going into reprinting Munchkins cards.  It cost less to do.  Meanwhile, Warhammer 40K is filling the shelves were GURPS products used to be.  I'll never understand the fascination with that game.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;531003I like the GURPS system just fine. As long as Munchkin remains the big favorite over at SJ games, I wouldn't hold out much hope for very much GURPS support.

I've never played Munchkins.  Never will.  There's no replay value after you've read all the jokes on the cards.  "Honey?  We need $25 to buy more Munchkins cards to make this game fun again."

Quote from: estar;531033At this point they have a lot of work done for certain lines. For example Dungeon Fantasy, Monster Hunter, etc. A genre book could be created by combining some of the releases into a coherent whole.

If SJGames put all their Dungeon Fantasy PDFs into one printed book I'd buy it with PayPal now.  I have just the first 4 volumes in print.  The rest are PDF only, so I don't have them.  I rarely buy PDFs.  I'm a book person.

The same goes for GURPS Spaceships.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;531081I've never played Munchkins.  Never will.  There's no replay value after you've read all the jokes on the cards.  "Honey?  We need $25 to buy more Munchkins cards to make this game fun again."

Then you've never hit the bigger problem: there's little play value the first time. Munchkin is a nasty, poorly-designed, barely-playtested game, that a certain segment of gamers fucking love to buy for some insane reason that I will never understand. If a Munchkin game doesn't end in a fight or at least one of the players storming off in a huff, it hasn't ended yet.

I mean, props to Steve Jackson (US) for keeping his company going so long, but fuck Munchkin.

Petrol and a lighter.