All trolling aside (I have nothing against 4e and its fans, in fact I'm playing in a 4e game), my initial reaction did go someting like this:

Quote from: 1989;466835D&D has been beat by a clone with a name so retarded as "Pathfinder". Hard to believe.

All things considered, I wonder whether it would be a good solution for Hasbro to license the D&D RPG to Paizo, while retaining the D&D IP for board games, miniatures and other assorted paraphernalia. Kind of like GW licensed the Warhammer RPGs to Green Ronin, and later FFG.

huh... one version of D&D is beating another version of D&D out there on the market.  It's a scenario that never could have played out without WotC's OGL.  I guess that's a big deal.  And i'll admit I'm enjoying my popcorn by the fire.

But I still liked it better when Traveller and Vampire were beating D&D and I remember how short lived those events were.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466807But their production schedule could be thinning because they are losing ground to pathinder and trying to re-group.

Or it could be thinning because they got a new corporate head from Hasbro who saw that a move from print to digital would increase profits and reduce costs.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466809I think this has come up before but the problem is d&d is such a small part of what hasbro does their numbers tend to be buried in the reports.

He was actually asking about Paizo...

Seanchai

Quote from: Reckall;466851OTOH 3/3.5 stuff is valued his weight in gold, at least on the internet. I put books in my "to buy" basket marked at $25 and after two days the price had jumped to $75 ("Drows of the Underdark").

Where are you buying product at?

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=dungeons+and+dragons+3.5&_sacat=See-All-Categories

It looks like Drow of the Underdark is a particularly hot item (of course, you can still get it for basically the cover price on Amazon.com). The rest of the books seem to be selling at cover price or less...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;466903Or it could be thinning because they got a new corporate head from Hasbro who saw that a move from print to digital would increase profits and reduce

Seanchai

this is possible. But i would expect a more clear and organized transition. Changes to production schedule seem more last minute and confused than planned out to me. You make a strong argument, i just fall down on the either side after examining the different possibilities.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466906But i would expect a more clear and organized transition.

Because changes usually occur in a clear and organized fashion in the corporate world?

An abrupt switch, confused staff, confused/lacking statements to the public, layoffs, leadership changes, a sweeping change in the production schedule, et al., are exactly what I'd expect to see from this sort of thing.

As a bibliophile and avid consumer, I don't like all of it, but I can certainly see where the corporate guy is coming from. They get to drop distributor fees, distributor headaches, warehousing costs, retailer problems/questions, and the staff associated with those sorts of things; the cost and staff associated with the laying out, production, and mailing of physical books; reduce staff producing art and copy; etc.. And they still get a health, predictably enough revenue stream.

Consider: If there are a million 4e players out there and only one fifth of them purchase a monthly DDI subscription, that's $14,280,000 a year gross. Just from DDI. Any physical products they sell are just icing on the cake. And as much of that is basically pre-orders, that's money in the bank.

You don't find the idea of a big move to digital compelling? 'Cause I sure do.

Seanchai

I would expect them to follow through on products they announced were in the pipeline. If only to avoid resentment from customers.

In terms of how much ddi is making that is very hard to estimate. We don't know how much they invested in its development, how much it costs to market and maintain. I dont pretend to know how much any of these companies are making on a given product because there are so many other costs involved. I do think ddi is a good idea. But i am not convinced that recent changes at wizards has to do with a move to ddi.

Quote from: 1989Go back to fapping it to your sailor girl anime.

Only if you'll watch it with me, sugar.  You're just so feisty, it's driving me crazy!

The only condition is that I get to be the top.

In other news, NF is remembering why thread fighting is a pointless exercise. Oh and Carrion Crown AP is much better than he expected. Which just means it's super awesome.

Quote from: Peregrin;466938Only if you'll watch it with me, sugar.  You're just so feisty, it's driving me crazy!

The only condition is that I get to be the top.

Also, sailor girl anime? Isn't that... uh... old? By anime standards, I mean.

Quote from: Melan;466941Also, sailor girl anime? Isn't that... uh... old? By anime standards, I mean.

Depends what he meant.  Girls still wear sailor uniforms in Japan, and that's reflected in high-school drama shows.  And magical girl shows are still coming out.  But Sailor Moon is pretty ancient at this point (I've never watched it--it came out when I was 5).

Quote from: Seanchai;466905Where are you buying product at?

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311&_nkw=dungeons+and+dragons+3.5&_sacat=See-All-Categories

It looks like Drow of the Underdark is a particularly hot item (of course, you can still get it for basically the cover price on Amazon.com). The rest of the books seem to be selling at cover price or less...

Seanchai

Looks like it is a particularly hot item on the secondary market.  If it is showing up on eBay in large numbers, that means large numbers of people are trying to offload it, and hoping for something close to what they paid so as to make the loss not sting so much.  It is akin to claiming that the Washington Wizards must be a great team, because everyone is trying to sell their trading cards on eBay or at the local card shop.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466910I would expect them to follow through on products they announced were in the pipeline. If only to avoid resentment from customers.

In terms of how much ddi is making that is very hard to estimate. We don't know how much they invested in its development, how much it costs to market and maintain. I dont pretend to know how much any of these companies are making on a given product because there are so many other costs involved. I do think ddi is a good idea. But i am not convinced that recent changes at wizards has to do with a move to ddi.

But we can guesstimate from past performance.  TSR was notorious for fucking up electronic media, and the first couple of tries by WotC weren't much better.  

For example, how is that DDI Virtual Table working out?  It really shouldn't be in beta eight months along (and those are just some of the more recent announcements/comments from November - DDI's Virtual Table is supposed to have been in the works since 2008 or so).  There are dozens of virtual tables out there, and several are open source, so they could have used one of those as a template of sorts instead of starting essentially from scratch.  The whole project feels like they think it is some radical new technology that no one else has done before.  Which tells me they are making more and more demands from the design team, and they have probably wandered into 'undeliverable' territory with some of their recent specifications.

I could post a dozen pages of Google hits with further complaints about DDI, but all it seems to be at the moment is an online powers reference and character generation program.  If it wouldn't land me in legal hot water, I could shit one of those out over a weekend; WotC has had 3+ years and a team of developers working on this.  Instead of haphazardly tossing them all over the site, they could have maps and weekly adventures as a freebie to entice subscribers.  Almost any periodic material one could expect to find in Dragon or Dungeon could be collected under DDI, some free, some behind the paywall.

I have grave doubts DDI is doing much more than barely breaking even at this point.  It may never do more than that, if they don't figure out what materials will give them the best leverage over their consumers' wallets and tenaciously pursue those goals.

Quote from: SeanchaiConsider: If there are a million 4e players out there and only one fifth of them purchase a monthly DDI subscription, that's $14,280,000 a year gross. Just from DDI. Any physical products they sell are just icing on the cake. And as much of that is basically pre-orders, that's money in the bank.

If there are 1 million D&D players (WotC actual estimate). The average game has 4 players + GM. That means there are appx. 200,000 tables. If half of those tables subscribe to DDI (still a generous assumption, there's not much need for more then one subscription per group and there are plenty of free character builder competitors) then you have 100,000 subscriptions. That's just over $7 million per year revenue at the lowest subscription rate. It's probably mostly profit, but it accounts for, at best, half their revenue for the D&D brand. I'm sure the boardgames alone turn over more then 7 Million a year.

Quote from: StormBringer;466965Which tells me they are making more and more demands from the design team, and they have probably wandered into 'undeliverable' territory with some of their recent specifications.

In other words, a project in a "death march" phase.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_march_%28project_management%29

Quote from: StormBringer;466965I could post a dozen pages of Google hits with further complaints about DDI, but all it seems to be at the moment is an online powers reference and character generation program.  If it wouldn't land me in legal hot water, I could shit one of those out over a weekend; WotC has had 3+ years and a team of developers working on this.

Wonder if WotC outsourced the DDI programming to India, or hired a "gang that couldn't shoot straight" bunch of programmers.

:banghead:

:rolleyes: