Quote from: kryyst;466786Actually on quick review I think the Epic Fail is on NF.  Given your past stories, why you keep playing with this DM is beyond me.

This.

I'm not sure how hard it is to find a group in Morgantown, West Virginia, but really... I think it was Mike "Old Geezer" Mornard who once said that "no gaming is still better than bad gaming." Food for thought...

Quote from: Nightfall;466787Kryyst,

Reason I keep playing is mostly BECAUSE I kind of founded this group and I'm like that DC Comics Nerd/Marvel Comics nerd. Certain teams need certain members. You kind of have to have Thor, Captain America and Iron Man for the Avengers to work. Same thing with the Justice League. In any case, it's not like he's going to DM the next campaign. I am.

I dunno if it's an epic fail...but this will teach me when I DO play a paladin again with him (or anyone else) that I don't break magically sealed doors that aren't home to demons or drow.

I can accept that to a point and even in my own group we have a collection of players.  Some of us DM others are just players, that's fine.  I guess the questions I'd be asking myself are;  Would I rather play a game that is frustrating me then to not play at all.  Am I the only one that seems to be having issues with the DM's calls.  When the game does change and someone else takes over as DM is this past DM now going to become an ass of a player.

I've met both.  Some people are just assholes player or DM.  Others just don't make for great DM's but are fine players.  Usually in the later it's inexperience or lack of confidence that leads to the problems.  Usually though they are open to help if it's given in a non-accusatory way.

I do tend to agree that no gaming is better then bad gaming as no gaming doesn't ruin your spirit.  However if you are still ultimately having fun then maybe this isn't as big of a deal as you are making it out to be.

Butcher,

It's kind of hard honestly. I went through a severe dry drought of gaming from 2004 to 2008/2009. Trust me while I appreciate the fact bad gaming can ruin stuff, it's not THAT bad. Just yet.

Kryyst,

I'm not sure it's THAT bad, but it's not that good either. But then again I do think it's mostly because my DM/GM has it in for paladins...sometimes. That being said, I'm more annoyed than I am angry enough to leave the group.

Quote from: Nightfall;466775Do I think he's the ultimate authority? Yes. Does that make him always right? No. But that's how it goes.

That seems reasonable to me. But then this discussion seems pointless. Because your choices seem limited to accepting whatever happens, no matter how reasonable or unreasonable it may be, or to leave the group.

But overall it seems weird to me to support a "the DM is the ultimate authority" position and then grouse about his decisions. (Not that I'm saying you're necessarily doing that...)

Seanchai

To harsh for the (supposed) infringement...bad DM, bad...

Quote from: Seanchai;466805That seems reasonable to me. But then this discussion seems pointless. Because your choices seem limited to accepting whatever happens, no matter how reasonable or unreasonable it may be, or to leave the group.

But overall it seems weird to me to support a "the DM is the ultimate authority" position and then grouse about his decisions. (Not that I'm saying you're necessarily doing that...)

Seanchai

Well think of it like sports. We accept the refs are in charge of the game BECAUSE they dictate the rules of the game. Even though Players are an important part of said game. Even so fans (and some times the players involve) grouse about the rules.

It happens.

Quote from: Nightfall;466800Butcher,

It's kind of hard honestly. I went through a severe dry drought of gaming from 2004 to 2008/2009. Trust me while I appreciate the fact bad gaming can ruin stuff, it's not THAT bad. Just yet.

Understandable. But even if I kept playing with these guys, out of a lack of options, I'd be looking for another group on the side...

Butcher,

I might but right now that means making the effort. And honestly, I'm kind of lazy. Plus the fact Sundays are realistically the best day(s) to game.

For me, it comes down to whether or not the game is on.  During the game, there should be no grousing, no lawyering, no looking up rules with any intent other than to assist the DM.  In between games, it is certainly appropriate to tell the DM (once) what is not working for you, and a good DM can certainly benefit from making changes suggested (once!) by Players.

Having said that, I don't think rules need to be mutually agreed upon if the DM has a clear understanding and communicates that - the books are tools, not higher authorities, and only in a tournament situation is it possible for a DM to break the rules.  The power that Players have to leave the game and go elsewhere should not be underestimated, though.

Sounds like a real jerk move from the DM. If the DM had prefaced this with a reminder about the parable of "Thorin the door-kicker" or given some sort of warning that this was a violation of your knightly code that would be different. As someone else pointed out regarding police, sometimes kicking in a door is a lawful act.

Some folks just have issues with paladins and LG characters in general. I dunno if it's because they are all "dark and extreme" or just cynical about human nature. DMs who go out of their way to strip paladins of their paladin status tend to not be very good DMs in my experience.

Quote from: Esgaldil;466899Having said that, I don't think rules need to be mutually agreed upon if the DM has a clear understanding and communicates that - the books are tools, not higher authorities, and only in a tournament situation is it possible for a DM to break the rules.

It doesn't sound like there's room for rules calls or situational judgments, which is where it seems to me most of the cause for grousing comes.

Quote from: Esgaldil;466899The power that Players have to leave the game and go elsewhere should not be underestimated, though.

That it true, but it's been my experience, there are generally other factors that work against a casual dropping of games, factors such as it literally being the only game in town, friends still playing the game, being friends with the DM, a good time or location, et al.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;466901It doesn't sound like there's room for rules calls or situational judgments, which is where it seems to me most of the cause for grousing comes.

I don't understand.  What am I describing (or arguing for, or arguing against, I can't tell) that leaves no room for situational judgement?

Quote from: Ian Warner;466542Damn you! Now I want to play DCI Gene Hunt as a Paladin!

Awesome.

Quote from: Esgaldil;466904I don't understand.  What am I describing (or arguing for, or arguing against, I can't tell) that leaves no room for situational judgement?

You don't understand because I completely misread "I don't think rules need to be mutually agreed upon" as "I think rules need to be mutually agreed upon." Mea culpa.

Seanchai

Seanchai - No worries.  In your defense, the sentence I wrote that you misread was horribly constructed and included several entirely unrelated thoughts.  Periods are free.  I should use them more often.  I'll work on that.