Quote from: danbuter;466759The Pathfinder section at my local LGS is twice as big as the 4e section, and the owner has stated it sells much better. Maybe it's a regional thing.

Or an individual store thing. Also, the owner of one of my FLGSes likes 4e, play 4e, hosts Encounters, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if that has something to do with the popularity of 4e in his store. (He likes Pathfinder, too, as far as I am aware, but is actually running a 4e game.)

Quote from: danbuter;466759Of course, I'm sure he's losing sales to B&N and Borders, who both carry 4e.

And Amazon and DDI.

Seanchai

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466762... they have fewer corporate layers to cut through for decisions.

I think that's certainly an advantage Paizo has over WotC. But I would think whether or not they "pivot" is also dependent on the company's culture. I don't know what Paizo's is like - the only example I have is their choices about getting on board with 4e.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466762I imagine the real reason they stuck with 3e is they had a wealth of 3e material in development...

Yeah: Pathfinder.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466762Slavicsek: he was the head of r&d. I just dont see him leaving over a personality conflict. If there had been one would expect the person lower on the totem to go.

We don't know what it's like inside WotC. I haven't heard anything bad, but who knows? Moreover, a new boss coming in and someone in the organization leaving or being forced out is a story as old as time and as common as clocks.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466762Sure its possible he left voljntarily i simply dont see that as the most plausible explanation.

I don't think he left voluntarily either...

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466762i find lisa's statement quite convincing and i think if it is outselling 4e in print that is very significant.

The CEO's statement was about the number of copies sold, not sales in general. And it was in select markets. Was that just stores in the Seattle area? Her company's distributors? Online book sellers? And Pathfinder wasn't outselling 4e in all of them, just most. How many is "most"? Six out of ten? Eight of ten?

Moreover (and more importantly), have you noticed that these stories of Pathfinder outselling 4e started to crop up only as WotC's released schedule thinned? Nobody was saying Pathfinder was outselling in August 2009 when WotC was putting out three books a month. It's only now that Pathfinder is catching up and over taking them.

I wouldn't be surprised if Paizo is doing well, but I don't think the CEO's statement is evidence of anything save the number of copies of print books sold in whatever markets she was referring to.

Seanchai

Would Paizo's annual report/return be available to the public?

If her info was correct i think it is telling. She was told by her distributors that patgfinder was outperforming 4e in most markets. We dont know which, but we know its the majority of them. A quick look on amazon shows it is outselling 4e there as well.

I agree it takes two to tango and wizards thinning production schedule could be part of the mix. But their production schedule could be thinning because they are losing ground to pathinder and trying to re-group. That was part of the chaos i mentioned before. Between lisa's statement, bill's departure and their production schedule i tend to think things are not where wizards wants them to be.  But who knows, they could be planning something big that will blow us all away or bring pathfinder people back to 4e. While i don't enjoy 4e as an rpg i was very impressed with castle ravenloft and plan on buying conquest of nerath (and cr definitely used 4e as a base).

Quote from: Fiasco;466806Would Paizo's annual report/return be available to the public?

I think this has come up before but the problem is d&d is such a small part of what hasbro does their numbers tend to be buried in the reports.

Paizo has repeatedly said the interest in there game is growing since it's release. Their core books sales have increased year to year since release.

It's also not the first time Pathfinder was beating D&D. Just before Essentials was released, there was a period of a couple months where Paizo was also outselling D&D.

Is D&D still the #1 game. I'm sure. Paizo would need Pathfinder on top for a couple years to catch up. However, it's possible and easily conceivable that they are winning right now.

4e is long in the tooth. After years playing 4e, I'm sure many people would be checking out the game stocked right next to it in bookstores.

4e has probably hit it's saturation point. Few gamers that haven't already bought 4e are going to buy it now.

WOTC output for new books has been really shitty lately. Very fringe releases and many core supplements OOP. Not so with Paizo, with the relatively small number of books in the line and all of the core supplements are still in print.

Having read through the PF rulebook, I find it longer in the tooth than 4e, since PF isn't that much different from 3.0/3.5.

That said, I think 4e's issues with gameplay past the first few levels kind of make it tough to have much in the way of legs. WotC's emphasis on hardcover rulebooks and books and books over adventures and setting also didn't help--if the establishes rules don't work, I'm not motivated to buy any more rulebooks to add to the pile, while I might be tempted to buy a good adventure or setting.

"Scott is totally right here. Pathfinder has surpassed D&D in most of the markets that I check. At this time in history, that is what I have been told by people in the hobby distribution trade, the book trade, and other avenues that both games sell their products into. If you talk to the various retailers, it is a mixed bag, with one telling you one thing and another a different story. But when you talk to the folks who sell those retailers the product that they sell, then you get a clearer picture. And I am just talking table-top RPG business. I am not talking about board games or card games or video games or whatnot. Just books and digital copies of those books for use in playing a table-top RPG." -- Lisa Stevens, Paizo CEO


Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, 4oron.

4e is a pile of shit, and everyone who plays it is a f*cking moron. 3e is also a pile of shit, though not so putrid as 4e. All hail TSR-era D&D.

When I think back to the time shortly after the release of 4e, where all the 4orons declared that 4e was the best iteration of D&D, yet, I can't help but laugh, their stupidity now laid bare for all to see.

D&D has been beat by a clone with a name so retarded as "Pathfinder". Hard to believe. But at the same time, not so hard to believe.

I hope that every man involved in the design of 4e receives his portion of cosmic karma for designing such a pile of shit and unleashing it upon the world. F*cking clueless asshats.

4e is being marched to the gallows even as we speak.

-5/10

4chan has ten year olds that can troll better.  That was just awful, man.

Which website you from, though?  What's your real handle?

Quote from: Peregrin;466837-5/10

4chan has ten year olds that can troll better.  That was just awful, man.

Which website you from, though?  What's your real handle?

4chan? What the hell is that?

You probably play 4e. Dumbass.

Nice avatar -- f*cking Japanese cartoons. Goes well with your anime powerz-inspired, new-school D&D.

You = fail.

Go back to fapping it to your sailor girl anime.

Okay, that's officially great. Keep going!

Quote from: Windjammer;466593PS. And some anecdotal evidence from local retail stores: all pre-Essential titles are now marked off 80% - you literally can't find them outside bargain bins

OTOH 3/3.5 stuff is valued his weight in gold, at least on the internet. I put books in my "to buy" basket marked at $25 and after two days the price had jumped to $75 ("Drows of the Underdark").

2E/4E products, it turn, are usually sold at a discount. Pity that I don't care about them.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;466807While i don't enjoy 4e as an rpg i was very impressed with castle ravenloft and plan on buying conquest of nerath (and cr definitely used 4e as a base).

The Castle Ravenloft and Wrath of Ashardalon 4e elements are completely absent in Conquest of Nerath - it's got no RPG elements from any system.  There are Fighters, Wizards, and Dungeons, but these are all thoroughly integrated parts of a tightly constructed wargame.  The only connection to 4e is the use of a world map that has place names referred to in the 4e core world material, including "dungeons" named Tomb of Horrors and Vault of the Drow.  The Treasures also have familiar names, but they do not belong to the pieces that win them, they belong to the whole army.

If you are looking for a board game that combines warfare with RPG elements, you might consider Runewars or Age of Conan.  Nerath is good, but it's more similar to Axis & Allies than anything with an adventuring feel.  If you are looking for more in the same vein of Castle and Wrath, try Descent (I'm assuming you already play Arkham Horror).

In the interim, so far Seanchai and I haven't come to blows. But then again it's probably because I'm at that stage where he says something, I semi-ignore and pretend all is right with the world.

Esgadil. Thanks for thd info.