The only excuse I could see is an Elder Sign sort of sigil that seals evil within a trap, and by breaking it the paladin freed a greater evil. However, that just reinforces that the GM is a douche because he should have offered some sort of warning (rumors, ancient history knowledge, a "divine sense of foreboding" about kicking the door down, anything really) instead of "guess what I'm thinking!" pixel-bitching.

Really, unless the table agreed beforehand, stuck playing 20 Questions with your GM is already gauche. Having absolutely no warning that you should be playing 20 Questions, inexcusable. That's just breaking the table contract switcheroo.

Flat out, hands down, douche GM.

Jibba,

Firstly this is Pathfinder RPG/D&D. Is there ANYTHING truly rational? I know that's kind of knee jerk question but seriously...?

Secondly THIS is the complete, unrevised setup.

We, the PCs, have decided to go into Tanglebriar, a demon infested forest in the home of the kingdom of elves. Why? Because there lies the Winter Council, a secret society of elves that have run the country since the elves returned. Why are we going there? To figure out WHY they sent their minions to try to kill us. How did we get there? By trusting a half elf that turned out to be a succubus bard who knew their location BUT apparently couldn't enter the fortified location. Why did she do this? She's a succubus commander under orders by her demonic superior and leader of ALL the demons in this place, Tanglebriar, a nascent demon lord named Treerazer.
(Further details on him can be found HERE: http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Treerazer) So what did we do? We negotiated with the demonic horde that was standing outside the only entrance AND exit out of the building. Which is where the succubus dropped her disguise and subsequently made Hasini, my paladin VERY angry. What happened next? The guards inside asked us to state our business. We did, and managed to convince them that we weren't with the demons. The lieutenant in charge of the armed forces informed us that the Winter council members were still inside BUT hadn't been in any meetings in some time. He suggested, right after we explained WHY we were there, (along with the fact there was a plot by drow/dark elves to pull down celestial bodies/stars/whatever onto the elven kingdom), that we should try to get the Council to convene an emergency meeting. This led us to try to talk to all four of the remaining council members. One of which, a druid, wanted us to kill Vrocks for him. Which we did. Then when we went to go see the elven wizard, THAT when the door event occurred and thus my loss of paladin-hood.

Anything else need clarifying for you?

And for those of you that suggest I want, I honestly can't because a) I'm going to run Carrion Crown for these guys AND b) it's not like I can't get an atonement SOMEWHERE. I just am worried it won't be soon enough.

Quote from: jibbajibba;466535Depends on the full circumstance doesn't it.

So if you were official guests in the castle and one night you decided to get up and start breaking down locked doors then that isn't very paladinish even if you believed that the hosts might be evil in some way (but obviously have no hard evidence cos if you had that you would be in your rights to challenge them to give up their evil acts etc etc ...)

If you had entered the castle searching for a demon or whatever then breaking down every door is fair game.

Think of the police as a perfect example. If the police have a warrant and just cause they are able to break into a house and search it. If you invite a policeman into your house even if he thinks you might have 30 Chinese guys hidden in your cellar he is not allowed to kick the door in and go looking for them.

There are two problems with this analogy. First of all, if you invite a police officer into your house, and he smells you cooking meth in the next room, he's going to kick down the door and earn some XP. Even if the door is magically locked.

Second, paladins get their warrants from God.

Quote from: soltakss;466565I'd have killed the succubus - you deserved to lose paladinhood by not fighting the evil that you knew was there.

I only knew in METAGAME knowledge. My paladin had no reason to NOT believe her, even when she started using spells a bard had no access too. (She gave a pretty reasonable explanation as to her other spell-like abilities via "it's once per day usable magic item.)

Also while I was seriously contemplating fighting the demonic horde to get to the succubus, I still a) had the doors close on me and b) plans to do so AFTER we had gotten stuff done in the tower.

Paws,

Actually my warrant came from Saranrae.

Quote from: pawsplay;466601Second, paladins get their warrants from God.

Sick.

"Good grief! You're a guest in our stronghold, why are you breaking open our magically locked doors?"

"ANGRY... SUCCBUS..."

"As a resident of this stronghold I have to say that the siege of demons is pretty much the opposite of a justification for you to be breaking down magically locked doors. Use your bloody head; we're all fortunate that you didn't break down the wrong door and let all of those fucking demons in here to slaughter us!"

Planet,

yeah well they can only get in IF the walls are broken, not the doors.

Quote from: pawsplay;466601There are two problems with this analogy. First of all, if you invite a police officer into your house, and he smells you cooking meth in the next room, he's going to kick down the door and earn some XP. Even if the door is magically locked.

Second, paladins get their warrants from God.

Well Nf gave no explantion as to why he broke down the door. If he felt the presence of an evil being, if he heard a maiden screaming even if he heard elrich chanting that he rolled spellcraft on and thought it was a demonic summoning ... They would have been due cause akin to smelling the meth lab.

I am not saying NF was wrong just that it depends on the situation and evne now I am unclear. Is this council evil is this elven wizard evil we do not have enough data to determin the merits of the action.

And a paladin's warrent comes from the GM not god, although the two things may be interchangable

Jibbi,

The Winter council itself isn't any more evil than say the CIA or the NSA. Most of what they do is to help and monitor what they believe is best for elven society. Now here comes Meta-game knowledge; Yes the elven wizard is evil BUT it won't become apparent until AFTER the Council convenes. That being said, the result of his evil WILL give the PCs a clearer understanding of one of the major/ultimate Bad Guy (or girl in this case) who went from uncertain (and semi-repressed) elf to full blown Dark Elf/Drow.

Of course my character knows NONE of this other than there's a tenuous link between an elf name Allverah and the new head of House Azrine, who is helping to call down the star/meteor/astronomical body.

Quote from: jibbajibba;466639...it depends on the situation and evne now I am unclear.

That's the problem with these sorts of threads. Who the hell knows what actually happened and why. We have Nightfall telling us what happened from his perspective, but that's the only perspective we have. It could be that he's absolutely wrong. It could be that he's absolutely correct. Who the hell knows?

I'm more curious about the idea that the DM can't do whatever the hell he'd like in his game. Personally, as many of you know, I hold the view that ultimate authority is bunk. However, folks often argue with me on that point. And now it seems like some people - I don't know if they're the same people - feel the DM can be in the wrong.

Seanchai

Sean,

I wouldn't say the DM is always right any more than he's always wrong. In fact there are some decision THIS DM has made that I do agree with. This isn't one of them. Do I think he's the ultimate authority? Yes. Does that make him always right? No. But that's how it goes.

Quote from: Seanchai;466755I'm more curious about the idea that the DM can't do whatever the hell he'd like in his game. Personally, as many of you know, I hold the view that ultimate authority is bunk. However, folks often argue with me on that point. And now it seems like some people - I don't know if they're the same people - feel the DM can be in the wrong.

Seanchai

You're not going to show us where the naughty DM touched you again, are you? Please, we have seen enough of your psychological scars.

Quote from: Nightfall;466775Sean,

I wouldn't say the DM is always right any more than he's always wrong. In fact there are some decision THIS DM has made that I do agree with. This isn't one of them. Do I think he's the ultimate authority? Yes. Does that make him always right? No. But that's how it goes.

You do know that you are wasting reason, logic, and common sense on Seanchi, right?

Jeff,

Maybe but still doesn't mean I won't try to NOT bash my head against a brick wall.

Plus he's not insulted me about anything in THIS thread.

Epic Fail!!!!11!!

I'm just not sure if it was on the part of the Paladin or the DM.  Can both of them Epic Fail or does that sorta cancel out like a double negative?

Actually on quick review I think the Epic Fail is on NF.  Given your past stories, why you keep playing with this DM is beyond me.

Kryyst,

Reason I keep playing is mostly BECAUSE I kind of founded this group and I'm like that DC Comics Nerd/Marvel Comics nerd. Certain teams need certain members. You kind of have to have Thor, Captain America and Iron Man for the Avengers to work. Same thing with the Justice League. In any case, it's not like he's going to DM the next campaign. I am.

I dunno if it's an epic fail...but this will teach me when I DO play a paladin again with him (or anyone else) that I don't break magically sealed doors that aren't home to demons or drow.