Quote from: Justin Alexander;457609Your definition of "donation" includes "I give you money and then you give me the product I want for it"? That's a... broad definition.

In this case, he paid $15 for a book, but everyone else (non-donations) paid only $10. I would call that getting ripped off.

Quote from: PaladinCA;457589My only experience with this was in supporting Reign: Enchiridion. The only downside that I saw was that I donated $15 for the first copy and $12 for each extra copy after the first and the book ended up selling for $10 each. That is the price you pay for getting your name in the book as a supporter and getting early copies and PDFs.

Quote from: GameDaddy;457569Not exactly. The money is committed by the buyer and held in escrow until the project is completed. That capital is frozen. It can't be used for other investments. Why invest in a project when it will provide no return on the investment?

Yes, you get your money back, if the project is not completed, but when?

Also, what happens if the project is changed? If the author changes the goalposts and writes something significantly different than what was originally announced and publishes, are you still obligated to pay?

Yes... because you pre-committed those funds. It takes significant energy and time to secure that return of your investment, and that is something the authors are counting on. Not really a good investment strategy IMO, and one reason I haven't supported any kickstarter project to date.

The responsibility to write a good game/book rests solely on the shoulders of the author. As a fan I feel no obligation to take up any of that slack.

This is a fair point...hence why I have only kicked in on the two I mentioned. I own every game book by Third Eye Games, and - at worst - only REALLY LIKE the stuff. Most of it I love. I trust that Part-Time Gods will be something I will at least really like, because I know the author's track record.

Even if I weren't already a big fan of Savage Suzerain, I already know what's coming in Caladon Falls...I reviewed the PDF a few weeks ago.

I have no issue with the Kickstarter module, but I also am not going to blindly fund something just because the author or company says "pretty please". Again, I just look at it as a pre-order and nothing more.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;457609You expect to spend $20 and not only get a copy of the game but also stock options?

You're out of your ever-lovin' mind.

$20 is a good price for any good game. If it were something I was normally inclined to buy, and already available, I would buy it in a heartbeat.

...If, I have to fund or underwrite the printing, and am required to put money down upfront, without receiving anything in exchange until such time as enough people commit (And if enough don't commit, then what? I just wasted my time, right?) the game is completed, then yes... I want something extra for that, beyond just the game I would buy anyway.

...and that's another problem, if one is really serious about publishing, why insist on underfunding and just obtaining enough funds to complete one project, when one could use that time so much better, and fund a game publishing company instead, that could support numerous projects?

It would of course be worth more, and stock options or stock would cost more, however the dividends would make it worthwhile. I haven't seen a kickstart company do that yet though. The lack of commitment and also long-term planning from many startup game designers is dismaying.

Quote from: brettmb;457617In this case, he paid $15 for a book, but everyone else (non-donations) paid only $10. I would call that getting ripped off.

You mean the producers put the product on sale after they'd earned back its fixed costs?

You're not really so clueless as to think that this is a practice limited to or originating with Kickstarter, are you?

Quote from: GameDaddy;457656...If, I have to fund or underwrite the printing, and am required to put money down upfront, without receiving anything in exchange until such time as enough people commit (And if enough don't commit, then what? I just wasted my time, right?) the game is completed, then yes... I want something extra for that, beyond just the game I would buy anyway.

I respect your decision not to preorder stuff. But saying that everyone who preorders an item should expect to get stock options in the company is insane.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;457657I respect your decision not to preorder stuff. But saying that everyone who preorders an item should expect to get stock options in the company is insane.

Well, Kickstarter isn't for everyone. And I do pre-order stuff when companies have made a commitment to publish, and I know it's going to be something I will like.

What about the new game designers, who want to fund a kickstarter project, that don't have an established track record or game design credentials. What's the best way for them?

P.S. I find it interesting that saving ones money for real product and not vaporware is considered insane. Also interesting to note that it's now considered insane to expect a bit more from a game designer with no established track record who is approaching me with his hat in his hand becuase he can't scrape up the funds to even publish a few hundred copies of his/her works.

It's not like the bar for tabletop designers is very high when compared to other mediums, and it's not like they don't ever make bad games.

Quote from: GameDaddy;457658P.S. I find it interesting that saving ones money for real product and not vaporware is considered insane.

I've contributed to a number of Kickstarter projects over the last couple of years; not once has the product turned out to be "vaporware."  You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

Quote from: misterguignol;457660I've contributed to a number of Kickstarter projects over the last couple of years; not once has the product turned out to be "vaporware."  You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

Well, the first two pre-orders I did many years before this became the latest fad were cancelled, so I ended up wasting both my time and money on those projects, and they were from established RPG companies.

Now, I'm glad some folks are able to publish their own RPG or supplement. Just wish they had more commitment and the balls to dream big and set ambitious goals for themselves instead of insisting on subsisting hand-to-mouth.

Quote from: GameDaddy;457661Well, the first two pre-orders I did many years before this became the latest fad were cancelled, so I ended up wasting both my time and money on those projects, and they were from established RPG companies.

Gosh, maybe this means that people who want so badly for their game to make it to press have more passion about seeing their work through to completion that these complacent "established RPG companies" and are therefore worthy of support.  Your anecdote doesn't support your position.

QuoteNow, I'm glad some folks are able to publish their own RPG or supplement. Just wish they had more commitment and the balls to dream big and set ambitious goals for themselves instead of insisting on subsisting hand-to-mouth.

Such as?  What more commitment do you expect from someone who wants to make a game than that they...make a game?

Quote from: GameDaddy;457661Well, the first two pre-orders I did many years before this became the latest fad were cancelled, so I ended up wasting both my time and money on those projects, and they were from established RPG companies.

Now, I'm glad some folks are able to publish their own RPG or supplement. Just wish they had more commitment and the balls to dream big and set ambitious goals for themselves instead of insisting on subsisting hand-to-mouth.

The things you have posted here are among the most disingenuous, slanderous, and deliberately obtuse bullshitive ever read.

You continue to top yourself, you complete goddamn batshit asswipe.

Quote from: GameDaddy;457658

QuoteI respect your decision not to preorder stuff. But saying that everyone who preorders an item should expect to get stock options in the company is insane.

P.S. I find it interesting that saving ones money for real product and not vaporware is considered insane.

I find it interesting that you're illiterate. I said you were insane for expecting stock options. I actually said that your decision not to preorder stuff was just fine.

(Although referring to all preorders as "vaporware" is edging towards stupid.)

Quote from: brettmb;457552That's fine if you want to do it as a group, but to expect a company that will ultimately profit from it to solicit donations is a bit dodgy.

I'm assuming, however, that with these games the basic premise is like what J Arcane described:  basically, people are committing to pre-ordering (not even paying for it unless the project becomes a reality).  So they ask you to contribute whatever, $25 lets say and the "reward" for that contribution is a single copy of the completed game when it comes out. You're basically just promising to buy the game, in a way that makes it impossible for you to lose money if the game never comes out, and impossible for the would-be customers to back-out if the game does get completed.  Its a two-way guarantee.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;457879I'm assuming, however, that with these games the basic premise is like what J Arcane described:  basically, people are committing to pre-ordering (not even paying for it unless the project becomes a reality).  So they ask you to contribute whatever, $25 lets say and the "reward" for that contribution is a single copy of the completed game when it comes out. You're basically just promising to buy the game, in a way that makes it impossible for you to lose money if the game never comes out, and impossible for the would-be customers to back-out if the game does get completed.  Its a two-way guarantee.

RPGPundit

Yes, that is exactly how it works.

Quote from: RPGPundit;457879I'm assuming, however, that with these games the basic premise is like what J Arcane described:  basically, people are committing to pre-ordering (not even paying for it unless the project becomes a reality).  So they ask you to contribute whatever, $25 lets say and the "reward" for that contribution is a single copy of the completed game when it comes out. You're basically just promising to buy the game, in a way that makes it impossible for you to lose money if the game never comes out, and impossible for the would-be customers to back-out if the game does get completed.  Its a two-way guarantee.

RPGPundit

Yup.  That's precisely how it works.  You don't lose a dime if they fail to meet their deadline.  

Higher contributions generally also come with commensurate bonus product and credit as well.  

This can get silly at times; I've seen films that offer Producer credit for especially large contributions ...

Quote from: J Arcane;457883This can get silly at times; I've seen films that offer Producer credit for especially large contributions ...

It would probably be more accurate to give them an Executive Producer credit.