Quote from: brettmb;457552That's fine if you want to do it as a group, but to expect a company that will ultimately profit from it to solicit donations is a bit dodgy.

There ain't a lot of venture capitalists out there leaping at the chance to invest in RPGs.  

So short of mortgaging their houses and bankrupting their families, how the hell are grade-A RPGs supposed to get made?  The standing publishers stopped taking submissions years ago, so that leaves dooming your project to a small imprint or self publishing in your free time while making up for lost talent by recruiting whoever will work for basically free in your favorite forum or IRC channel of choice.

Think of this like an NEA grant, only it comes straight from the contributor instead of through some convoluted tax system and application process.

To imply there's something shady about it when every last detail of the transaction is pretty well established up front, is more than a bit disingenuous and unreasonable.

Quote from: J Arcane;457550They either get a game they want, or they keep their money.

Oooh, how horrible.

Not exactly. The money is committed by the buyer and held in escrow until the project is completed. That capital is frozen. It can't be used for other investments. Why invest in a project when it will provide no return on the investment?

Yes, you get your money back, if the project is not completed, but when?

Also, what happens if the project is changed? If the author changes the goalposts and writes something significantly different than what was originally announced and publishes, are you still obligated to pay?

Yes... because you pre-committed those funds. It takes significant energy and time to secure that return of your investment, and that is something the authors are counting on. Not really a good investment strategy IMO, and one reason I haven't supported any kickstarter project to date.

The responsibility to write a good game/book rests solely on the shoulders of the author. As a fan I feel no obligation to take up any of that slack.

QuoteThe responsibility to write a good game/book rests solely on the shoulders of the author. As a fan I feel no obligation to take up any of that slack.

And it still does. All you're doing is preordering the book, basically, since all but the most minimal contributions usually include a copy of the finished work, along with assorted other benefits depending on what version you're buying.

You're paying for that book to be able to come out in a professional looking form, something that isn't cheap, and isn't easy to secure funding for via traditional means.

This is a dead hobby for basement dwelling nerds, there's not a lot of capital flying around, and funding a professionally illustrated and edited book is not cheap.  I don't blame people for getting creative in how they take up the slack in funding a project.

If you don't like it, fine, don't contribute, but implying it's shady somehow, or that the problem rests with anything but your own self-entitled ass, is utterly asinine.  

I for one welcome any creative solutions for keeping this RPG thing going outside the walls of one fucking toy company.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;457551This ignores several factors.

(1) Projects which require capital in order to exist. Saying "just go make it" might work for a novel, but it's not going to work for a lot of projects -- particularly projects which require manufacturing.

(2) There are cost-savings which become possible in mass production. If you can get a bunch of people onboard with a project before it's produced, it can end up being cheaper for everybody involved.

In practice, Kickstarter is no different than any other system for pre-ordering a product. The only real difference is that it includes more protections for the consumers.

Not really. It includes more protection for the authors at the expense of the consumers.

Kickstarter is designed to fund small or startup projects, so the costs savings on mass production is insignificant in the larger scheme of things.

The "one investment" strategy of funding a single kickstarter project doesn't make good sense if you are in investor. I'd rather put my money into an investment that will continually provide an ongoing return like Stocks, Mutual Funds, and Bonds. These are more liquid, are transferable, and also provide a return on the initial investment.

As an investor, you truly get to be more wealthy investing in this manner.

A Kickstarter project I would be willing to invest in? One that provided Stocks, or discounted options to buy stocks or product. That way I'm rewarded for my good judgement of supporting the author/manufacturer.

It's not an investment, you douchewaffle.

Quote from: J Arcane;457579It's not an investment, you douchewaffle.

That's my point. It should be. That's the way to keep more than just one company making rpgs. If you are just going to vanity publish, I'm not interested. You want a game company? I'm on board, along for the ride, and will blow the whistle so everyone knows you are coming. Just want to be able to share in the success.

Quote from: GameDaddy;457580That's my point. It should be. That's the way to keep more than just one company making rpgs.

Hot dogs aren't strawberry cake, either, but you don't see me complaining about it and impugning the morality of the hot dog vendor.

QuoteA Kickstarter project I would be willing to invest in? One that provided Stocks, or discounted options to buy stocks or product.

You get the product for FREE.

How much more of a discount can you offer on FREE?

An economic system will succeed or fail on its own merits -- it doesn't need justification.

Also, how is it vanity publishing if you're actually able to interest people and get them to put money up front?  Obviously someone is interested in what you're producing as a product.

Quote from: J Arcane;457581How much more of a discount can you offer on FREE?

Discounts on additional product along with a license to resell.

More than one copy of free product, so I could resell those.

Stock options, for receiving annual dividends (If it is a real company, and not just a one-off vanity publishing attempt).

I could go on, But I have to go earn some real money. Be back later.

Quote from: GameDaddy;457585Discounts on additional product along with a license to resell.

More than one copy of free product, so I could resell those.

Stock options, for receiving annual dividends (If it is a real company, and not just a one-off vanity publishing attempt).

I could go on, But I have to go earn some real money. Be back later.

Real money?

You mean like the stuff you get for trying to sell free energy scams on the internet?

Real moral high ground there, Mr. Venture Capitalist.

Quote from: J Arcane;457574If you don't like it, fine, don't contribute, but implying it's shady somehow, or that the problem rests with anything but your own self-entitled ass, is utterly asinine.

I agree 100%.

However, keep in mind that that the only good thing is making money and only those who already have it deserve to make money. :rolleyes: If you read the anti-kickstarter people's replies with that mentality then you'll see what their real beef with it is.

Quote from: GameDaddy;457575I'd rather put my money into an investment that will continually provide an ongoing return like Stocks, Mutual Funds, and Bonds. These are more liquid, are transferable, and also provide a return on the initial investment.

As an investor, you truly get to be more wealthy investing in this manner.

Yeah, the $15 I pledged for the reign Kickstarter would have been much better spent on stocks. Imagine the money I'd be swimming in from the dividends paid out on $15. Instead all I've got is a game book in return.

My only experience with this was in supporting Reign: Enchiridion.

The only downside that I saw was that I donated $15 for the first copy and $12 for each extra copy after the first and the book ended up selling for $10 each. That is the price you pay for getting your name in the book as a supporter and getting early copies and PDFs.

I guess it was worthwhile even if just to make sure that it got printed.

Quote from: ptingler;457588Yeah, the $15 I pledged for the reign Kickstarter would have been much better spent on stocks. Imagine the money I'd be swimming in from the dividends paid out on $15. Instead all I've got is a game book in return.

My line of thoughts exactly, plus the sarcasm made me laugh

Quote from: brettmb;457552That's fine if you want to do it as a group, but to expect a company that will ultimately profit from it to solicit donations is a bit dodgy.

Your definition of "donation" includes "I give you money and then you give me the product I want for it"? That's a... broad definition.

Quote from: GameDaddy;457585Stock options, for receiving annual dividends (If it is a real company, and not just a one-off vanity publishing attempt).

You expect to spend $20 and not only get a copy of the game but also stock options?

You're out of your ever-lovin' mind.

Quote from: GameDaddy;457585Stock options, for receiving annual dividends (If it is a real company, and not just a one-off vanity publishing attempt).

Yeeeaaaah, how many rpg publishers offer stock options?  Or are publicly traded?  

Whole lot of missing the fucking point of Kickstarter in this thread.