Quote from: Géza Echs;452442Why would you buy an RPG about Deathwatch members of the Imperial Space Marines and then complain that it doesn't allow you to play Eldar? Sounds like you wanted a generic 40K RPG. Deathwatch etc are clearly, obviously, upfrontedly not generic 40K RPGs. Why would you buy cupcakes and then complain that they're not cookies when they're obviously, upfrontedly not cookies?

The sad answer to that obvious question is.  Because some people always hope against hope that when they rub that lamp a Genie will pop up.  Even when that lamp is clearly labeled "NO GENIE INSIDE".  You just never know - maybe that's just what the Genie wants you to think.

Oh and for bonus points they get to feel entitled to bitch about a product they purchased.  As if somehow buying a game gives them entitlement and stock in the product.

Quote from: Géza Echs;452442Why would you buy an RPG about Deathwatch members of the Imperial Space Marines and then complain that it doesn't allow you to play Eldar? Sounds like you wanted a generic 40K RPG. Deathwatch etc are clearly, obviously, upfrontedly not generic 40K RPGs. Why would you buy cupcakes and then complain that they're not cookies when they're obviously, upfrontedly not cookies?

This isn't rpg.net, misrepresenting other people's comments is not cool.

He didn't say that he expected DW to do that.

Quote from: kryyst;452445The sad answer to that obvious question is.  Because some people always hope against hope that when they rub that lamp a Genie will pop up.  Even when that lamp is clearly labeled "NO GENIE INSIDE".  You just never know - maybe that's just what the Genie wants you to think.

Oh and for bonus points they get to feel entitled to bitch about a product they purchased.  As if somehow buying a game gives them entitlement and stock in the product.

Well, to be fair he might have a point about there not being enough adversaries in the core rules. It looks like there's enough to me, but I haven't tried to run a game. Being unsatisfied because a game about space marines doesn't allow you to run a game about Ork player characters, however, seems right out. It's not a generic ruleset; it's like complaining that Harn doesn't allow one to run a Lord of the Rings campaign right out of the core rules.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452446This isn't rpg.net, misrepresenting other people's comments is not cool.

What?! It's not?! Oh, thank God you were here to point that out to me. Hey, so long as you're giving location advice, where's the best place around here to get a good kebab?

QuoteHe didn't say that he expected DW to do that.

Sure he did. Here's the paragraph:

QuoteIf I want to play a campaign about the Battle for Armageddon, I should be able to. If I want to play a campaign about Eldar pirates, I should be able to. If I want to play a campaign about Ork clans Gorkamorka style, I should be able to. If I want to play a campaign about a Rogue Trader ship filled with all different xenos crewmembers, I should be able to. The 40K universe supports a lot of different things, why make the games so limited in scope?

Admittedly, he's not just complaining about DW being about space marines. He's also complaining about what DH and RT were obviously themed towards.

Quote from: Géza Echs;452448What?! It's not?! Oh, thank God you were here to point that out to me. Hey, so long as you're giving location advice, where's the best place around here to get a good kebab?

My arse.

Quote from: Ghost Whistler;452418But this makes no sense. You've already alluded to the fact the game doesn't give you enough as you've resorted to creating your own (or using other user created) content which presumably you did to fill in the blanks as it were.

I've done this with every RPG I've ever owned, as I said earlier, Mr. "Don't misrepresent other people's comments". The enemies I'm creating are homebrewed villains that don't appear in the setting at all other than in my games. Other than them, I'm using the bog standard guys in the back of the book, vehicles from RoB, and the leaders are Ascension-level characters.

There are a few reasons why I thought DW would be, on balance, worth getting, and of all the games I think the idea of a zealous action packed dawn of war vibe game is appealing the most. RT just struggles with the lack of information more than any other. DH probably the least, but it speaks to me the least.
In an idea world (ie one where I win the lottery every week) owning all the 40k books would be something I would pursue. So issues of quality (or perhaps even quanity) aside I have decided to give the game a go and brought the core book. I think that I may try, money permitting, and make a little hobby of collecting these books, if only for something to read. If the whole thing turns out to be a waste of money and a heap of execrable chaos spawn, well so be it.
I stand by my views; I do think FFG really could have made better decisions - or perhaps GW could have let them (we may never know). To be fair the 40k universe doesn't allow for as much latitude as it's scale suggests. Not canonically anyway (though FFG have added their own canon it would seem). Perhaps DW supplements will succeed where books like Battlefleet Koronus and RT fail. Perhaps i'll end up with enough books that i'll get little more than a hernia.

FFG were basically given their own part of the universe to carve off and run their own canon in as long as it doesn't effect the rest of GW's content.

The big disconnect is people assuming that FFG is or was ever putting out a Warhammer 40k rpg.  That was never the case.  They simply are putting out RPG's set in the Warhammer 40k universe.

Now here's to hoping that if they do ever put out a rounded 40k RPG it'll be closer to the WFRP 3rd ed style of rules then the the current line.

Quote from: kryyst;452495FFG were basically given their own part of the universe to carve off and run their own canon in as long as it doesn't effect the rest of GW's content.

The big disconnect is people assuming that FFG is or was ever putting out a Warhammer 40k rpg.  That was never the case.  They simply are putting out RPG's set in the Warhammer 40k universe.

Now here's to hoping that if they do ever put out a rounded 40k RPG it'll be closer to the WFRP 3rd ed style of rules then the the current line.

Ugh.

I don't understand what the problem is.

If FFG made the same shit for every game (chaos sorcerers and the other shit you mentioned) like putting it all in the Deathwatch corebook, you'd complain about repeating bullshit.  By the way, you should check out Disciples of the Dark Gods.

Since they don't repeat themselves too much (other than rules / permutations) you complain about that instead.

Fuck.

Quote from: Blackhand;452518I don't understand what the problem is.

If FFG made the same shit for every game (chaos sorcerers and the other shit you mentioned) like putting it all in the Deathwatch corebook, you'd complain about repeating bullshit.  By the way, you should check out Disciples of the Dark Gods.

Since they don't repeat themselves too much (other than rules / permutations) you complain about that.

This is because this thread was started in bad faith to begin with, and all he ever wanted to do was bitch about it.  It doesn't actually matter what the game actually did or what argument used to "prove" it's complete lack of merit, because he's really just pissed that the developers lacked the psychic insight to reach into his mind and produce precisely the exact game he always imagined.

Quote from: J Arcane;452519This is because this thread was started in bad faith to begin with, and all he ever wanted to do was bitch about it.  It doesn't actually matter what the game actually did or what argument used to "prove" it's complete lack of merit, because he's really just pissed that the developers lacked the psychic insight to reach into his mind and produce precisely the exact game he always imagined.

Yeah he's been like that for a while.

I might take him more seriously, but I've already heard all this shit.

I'm hardcore into Warhammer (every flavor) and I own thousands of dollars worth of miniatures.  As a fan, I know that almost every single rendition of something in the Imperium is going to be different.  Every single novel has something in it that's "weird" and totally not in the wargame.

The FFG games have a fantastic design.  They are not "broken".

Ghost Whistler is "broken" record.

YMMV according to how much other Warhammer stuff you own.  Wargames and everything.  Not that you'll have a cheap experience if you don't have ten thousand pages of fluff and wargame stats, but it will certainly be broadened and brightened.

Of course if you play AT-43 instead you need to shut the fuck up about how the 40k RPG sucks.  It's obviously not for you.

On a more positive note, one of my SM PCs took out a rogue warhound titan single-handedly on Sunday's session. He planted democharges in a vehicle hangar filled with jet fuel barrels and had the rest of the squad at the other end of town causing a ruckus by taking out the chaos heretics making a flank attack.

In its haste, the titan smashed through the vehicle hangar to get to them, and he set off the charges. I ruled that the blast was too close (within 5m) for the void shields to protect it, and the 11000 gallons of jet fuel set it on fire with a critical hit when I rolled damage. Then he jumped on top of it while it writhed and screamed using a jet pack, tore open the crew hatch, and killed the princeps and moderati inside with frag grenades and his chainsword. The fight ended with him standing atop the burning hulk of the dead titan shouting praises to the Emperor. It was a pretty awesome fight.

Awesome visual.

Quote from: Blackhand;452518I don't understand what the problem is.

If FFG made the same shit for every game (chaos sorcerers and the other shit you mentioned) like putting it all in the Deathwatch corebook, you'd complain about repeating bullshit.  By the way, you should check out Disciples of the Dark Gods.

Since they don't repeat themselves too much (other than rules / permutations) you complain about that instead.

Fuck.

What you call the same shit are the setting's adversaries (from the imperial perspective). These are hardly 'shit'; they are pretty important.

But they are already repeating themselves: each game uses the same rules, has the same 'what is roleplaying' spiel, etc. And putting words in my mouth isn't going to give you credibility. I didn't complain about repetition at all, nor did I advocate they do so.

Disciples is, again, a DH book. I really don't understand how peopel think this is a reasonable argument. What's in there is optimised, balanced, and designed for that game and it's premise. THere is some information that might be useful, but not enough to warrant spending £30+ on the entire book. How can you argue against repetition and then advocate this?

The problem is this is how FFG have set out their stall; it's not going to change. I have no problem with a 3+ game format at all, but it calls for a fundamental level of compatibility and the explanation as to how one might cross over materials. Just saying 'buy this book because it's got ten out of 200 pages of useful information which will still require work' is surely as crazy as advocating the complete reptition of material.

They have chosen to design a crunchy game and devote book space to including at least one adventure as well as repeating background on the Imperium.

But the fact remains: you need adversaries.

And if you choose to give space over, in books like CA or BfK, to homegrown aliens (Slaught, or Rak'Tol) then you are using space that could be given over to something more in keeping witht he setting. I personally don't want FFG's own ideas taking preference in that way. This is not a comment on the quality of those ideas; it's me saying that i want what's in 40k and 40k canon in my 40k experience as that's what I'm paying for. If FFG want to do a book of their own homegrown ideas that's fine, good luck to them. But that's space and design time given over - however you rationalise it (orks don't exist in the JR, NEcrons haven't been invented yet, etc) - to things that are not in 40k.

I'm not remotely asking for FFG to read my mind, neither am I a broken record, I'm questioning the discrepenacy between providing what constitutes an established setting used for the game, and what actually constitutes that game as a finished product. Expecting to encounter NEcrons, Dark Eldar or whatever in a 40k game cannot possibly be deemed unreasonable and if your judgement is that's the case then why are you even responding?