Quote from: Cole;443321Going back to the original post, remember Greyhawk was not so much a setting per se as a product of playing D&D, and its "generic" qualities come from D&D being open to players approaching it in any number of ways and rolling with it.

Note that the Greyhawk that was published is the not the Greyhawk Gygax initially setup. The original was based on a Map of North America with Greyhawk in the location of Chicago. Many of the locales, situations, and NPCs were transferred over particularly in central Flanness (the area around Greyhawk).

Apparently Gygax adopted the new version as his Greyhawk after publication.

Quote from: estar;443329Note that the Greyhawk that was published is the not the Greyhawk Gygax initially setup. The original was based on a Map of North America with Greyhawk in the location of Chicago. Many of the locales, situations, and NPCs were transferred over particularly in central Flanness (the area around Greyhawk).

Apparently Gygax adopted the new version as his Greyhawk after publication.

Right, I just view the eventual published setting as eventually a development of the table setting.

I really don't understand how people can't see the dungeon as the formidable structural tool it really is. Instead of clues and connections between NPCs you have walls and doors between rooms. Instead of a murder mystery, you have an enigma to solve to open the door or lower the draw-bridge. It is fundamentally equal in the sense that someone with a lack of creativity will fail miserably at it, while the creative mind will find much to do with it.

The fundamental difference is that the dungeon is a structural device that is physical in the game world, that you can imagine in a concrete fashion both as you sit down with your graph paper and draw a map, and as a player as you explore its tunnels. While the dungeon fundamentally will help the newbie use his imagination in concrete ways to build a world ripe for exploration, the Master GM will find there a depth of permutations and support for his creativity that rivals the best NPC Motivational flowcharts one could come up with.

So, if there is an artefact of outdated thinking nowadays, it is this notion that somehow the dungeon is for the retard role player, while the more sophisticated player will have left it behind in favor of more "mature" RPG venues. Balderdash. People with suited creativity and imagination will know better.

Quote from: Benoist;443345So, if there is an artefact of outdated thinking nowadays, it is this notion that somehow the dungeon is for the retard role player, while the more sophisticated player will have left it behind in favor of more "mature" RPG venues. Balderdash. People with suited creativity and imagination will know better.

I guess it part of the disdain of some for things that are easy for the novice to use or learn. The ease of learning a thing doesn't mean it doesn't possess great depth or creative potential. Look at people trying to master any of the classic board games like Chess.

Let's put aside the whole "players start off doing dungeons but eventually will grow out of it" argument. It might have been doctrine in the 90s, but that was a long time ago. It's a lot simpler that that.

People come to roleplaying games looking for different things. In a abstract sense maybe a dungeon is structurally not too disimilar to a murder mystery, but it's the little things that count. It's the little things that spark off our imagination or not.

You can't tell me there aren't a whole bunch of popular games and games styles that leave you cold. For some of us that goes for dungeon crawling.

With reference to dungeons, I loved them when I was 13. Now they bore me. That's why I don't like them. If I was teaching kids to play, I'd almost definitely use a dungeon for their first adventure or two, for the reasons you guys have stated.

Quote from: Soylent Green;443375People come to roleplaying games looking for different things. In a abstract sense maybe a dungeon is structurally not too disimilar to a murder mystery, but it's the little things that count. It's the little things that spark off our imagination or not.

You can't tell me there aren't a whole bunch of popular games and games styles that leave you cold. For some of us that goes for dungeon crawling.

And that's perfectly fine with me. It's like me saying "I'm not very much into Superhero games." That's cool.

I can explain how I use dungeons and how I find them endlessly entertaining, how that works for me, and then of course anyone's free to play whatever he or she wants. I too like to play spacefaring sci-fi, wilderness exploration, investigations in the 1920s etc. My favorite game with D&D is Call of Cthulhu. It's not a fluke.

What really rubs me the wrong way is the idea that dungeons are lame and childish, as this sort of finished one-dimensional concept for morons. Well no, that's factually untrue. This is bullshit. I'm glad you personally realize it's not the 1990s anymore mate, but Holy Shit! Seriously, that doesn't seem to be the case for everyone posting on gaming forums, that's for sure!

I hate the commonly expressed notion that comedy games are somehow less worthy or of a lower quality than "serious" games. That ain't going stop people feeling that way.

And yet we'll know Homer Simpson or Micheal Scott has much more to say about the human condition than any vampire, mutant or weary, ageless space entity.

The problem with comedy games is that most people aren't very funny. Trying to get a group to be funny on purpose for extended periods would suck.

I like dungeons, when they are done right. Taking a note from Earthdawn, I think it's really key to have a believable reason for the dungeon to exist.

Quote from: Soylent Green;443389...
And yet we'll know Homer Simpson or Micheal Scott has much more to say about the human condition than any vampire, mutant or weary, ageless space entity.

I am sure I have seen a vampire , mutant and space entity or two on the Simpsons.

Quote from: danbuter;443391The problem with comedy games is that most people aren't very funny. Trying to get a group to be funny on purpose for extended periods would suck.

If anything that means comedy games are more worthy than serious ones because they take more skill.

Quote from: Aos;443395I like dungeons, when they are done right. Taking a note from Earthdawn, I think it's really key to have a believable reason for the dungeon to exist.

Presumably, you mean as 'believable' as the reasons for the monsters, magicians and superheroes populating the surface world.

For my part, I expect the underworld to be even stranger, like Hades and Hel, the Sidhes and Annwn, the caves of Genies and those of uncanny hounds, the caverns of the Seven Geases, the Fortress Unvanquishable Save for Sacnoth, Melkor's halls in Middle-Earth, and so on.

Quote from: Phillip;443403Presumably, you mean as 'believable' as the reasons for the monsters, magicians and superheroes populating the surface world.

For my part, I expect the underworld to be even stranger, like Hades and Hel, the Sidhes and Annwn, the caves of Genies and those of uncanny hounds, the caverns of the Seven Geases, the Fortress Unvanquishable Save for Sacnoth, Melkor's halls in Middle-Earth, and so on.

Strange and believable aren't mutually exclusive; all of those are outre but make a certain sense in context. It's one thing to say "it's a weird supernatural realm," vs. "the dungeon is, you know, in this abandoned K-Mart."

I agree that 'dungeons' can be every bit as varied/sophisticated as cities or wilderness settings... but one reason I often think less of them is because the people playing them/creating them don't exert those potentials... and leave them as combat-oriented game shows.
A well designed dungeon with the right group can be a glorious thing though.