Quote from: Koltar;435921That slam was not needed.

Well, it is Fix News, though.

Note: I haven't read the article, but allow me to dust off my decades old psych studies from College...

D&D creates a power dynamic.  We can groan and roll our eyes at the idea, but it's true.  Me DM, you player.  Me fighter big and strong, you magic user, weak and squishy (or me magic-user mighty and arcane, you fighter, dumb and armored).  Cleric, will you heal me.  Well, I don't know, you're not my alignment/faith.  Thief pick the lock.  Well I dunno, you guys were kind of dicks to me.

This is, for all of us, "shut up and do it already and hey grab yourself a slice of pizza."

For them...well.  I will relate what a con told us in a psych class (he was on good behavior furlough for the day to talk to our class, Deviant Behavior): when he first started doing his talks and travels (accompanied by an armed corrections officer, I might add, as he was this day), he said the thing he had to learn to do when he was walking on campus was to put his hands deep in his pockets and lock his elbows.  Why?  Because in prison (this is in the US, in Florida, by the way) when someone brushed up against him, casually, his reaction was hit or stab.  Or grab them and beat them against something.  Because that brush up against was a power game.  Or a precursor to an attack.  Just brushing up against someone!

There's a guy in my game, ex Ranger, served in Iraq and Afghanistan, swell guy.  Took me to lunch for my birthday back on the 23rd.  I have - the dice have - killed characters of his more times than I can easily recall.  Time and time and time again.  It's the joke of the AD&D game.  When his characters have lived past six or eight sessions we celebrate.  I've never set out to intentionally off his characters.  Ever.  Never.  There's people in my games who've run characters for months without suffering a death.

Now transpose my comment on my game to that guys reaction to just being brushed up against.  Do you think giving cons with that kind of mindset ("He brushed up against me - I gotta give him a stabbing.") a random chance that their fun could be spoiled ("Sorry, cholo, your character is dead.  You blew another save.") and it happen over and over and over like it does to that guy in my group is a good idea?

It is not.

Checkers and Chess, even cards, you can learn to play and play well.  Dice are the great leveler - you can eat sleep and breath the Players Handbook.  Memorize every "From the Sorcerer's Scroll" from the first issue of The Strategic Review to Dragon's last issue, and throw in Unearthed Arcana and the Dungeon Masters Guide, Monster Manual, Fiend Folio and Deities & Demigods all for good measure and a "1" on save v. death is still a "1" (or fort save, or whatever saving throws have become, it doesn't matter).

It creates a power dynamic whereby the DM seemingly has the power of life over death, and if you're talking about people ready to fight and die for being touched in passing, then "Hey man, it ain't me, it's the dice" means little to nothing.

Good point.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;436000It creates a power dynamic whereby the DM seemingly has the power of life over death, and if you're talking about people ready to fight and die for being touched in passing, then "Hey man, it ain't me, it's the dice" means little to nothing.

You are talking about the 'Scared Straight' kind of lifelong hardened criminal, though.  Admittedly, the DM they interviewed was in for murder, but it was likely some kind of third degree what the hell ever.

Again, you are talking about impulse control.  If all the inmates can get out of this is a little better impulse control, they are getting magnitudes of order more help than the prison system currently gives them, as evidenced by your anecdote.

And since the prevailing attitude seems to be moving in a direction that I am advocating it works with perfect reliability in every single case; obviously not.  Put if it can help get some of these people on the road to not trying to fight or kill for accidental contact, I would say 'bring on the dice'.

I mean, seriously?  No one thinks there is any possible way for these inmates to help themselves or each other without a strict correctional or psychiatric regimen?

Quote from: StormBringer;436030You are talking about the 'Scared Straight' kind of lifelong hardened criminal, though.  Admittedly, the DM they interviewed was in for murder, but it was likely some kind of third degree what the hell ever.

I'm not sure what your first sentence means; could you clarify?  This guy wasn't there to "scare us straight" (although I "met" visitors like that all through junior high and highschool, I guess they were afraid if we didn't have Leroy von Stabsalot yell at us once a grade year we'd all go out and felony the first person we saw...)  Every day this guy came out and did things like that took a day off his time.  Shit, if he was sincere he may even be out by now...anyway...

QuoteAgain, you are talking about impulse control.  If all the inmates can get out of this is a little better impulse control, they are getting magnitudes of order more help than the prison system currently gives them, as evidenced by your anecdote.

The inmates don't have impulse control: to brush against is to go to war.  I can only imagine it's worse, or different but just as bad, now.  And please understand, despite my conservatism I'm not suggesting that these guys one and all are animals lock them up and throw away the key!  On the contrary, I'd wager probably half of inmates or more go in as perfectly normal people and must become sociopaths because of the institutional environment.  The fellow I discussed earlier was institutionalized at twelve, and even in the Juvenile facilities ("gladiator academy" he called it), they had just as severe problems.  He learned it on the way up.  The reform of the system from within must start.  BUT...

QuoteAnd since the prevailing attitude seems to be moving in a direction that I am advocating it works with perfect reliability in every single case; obviously not.  Put if it can help get some of these people on the road to not trying to fight or kill for accidental contact, I would say 'bring on the dice'.

...D&D is not the way.  It cannot be the way.  Power dynamic, power dynamic, power dynamic.  It's already there.  Let white collar, 9 month tennis prison you got caught stealing identities play D&D.  There is something way more fundamental that has to be reformed within the penal system in this country before we can consider frivolities like "hey can Bubba McCarjacker be the ranger".  Letting inmates play D&D, that's item number 931 on the list of things to do to "fix" prisons.  Right now the chief hurdle is convincing the powers that be that something needs to be done at all and that there even IS a list.  Get these guys to respect each other outside of prison power dynamics BEFORE you say "you can pretend kill him for slights".

QuoteI mean, seriously?  No one thinks there is any possible way for these inmates to help themselves or each other without a strict correctional or psychiatric regimen?

Most of them?  No.  I don't.  And it largely isn't their fault, it's the fault of the institutional arrangement they're in.  I have a cousin who was faced with a "choice" while in the county lockup for a couple of months to become a punk, a bitch or do something about the situation that would elevate him to Felon and ... well he'd probably be in prison now.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;436053I'm not sure what your first sentence means; could you clarify?  This guy wasn't there to "scare us straight" (although I "met" visitors like that all through junior high and highschool, I guess they were afraid if we didn't have Leroy von Stabsalot yell at us once a grade year we'd all go out and felony the first person we saw...)  Every day this guy came out and did things like that took a day off his time.  Shit, if he was sincere he may even be out by now...anyway...

Scared Straight

The point is that the guy you saw in your class is exactly the kind of inmate that would stab someone over a minor disturbance.  As I am sure you are aware, other inmates don't have that same problem.  Of course, mixing them all together in the general population almost certainly induces the behaviour in otherwise less violent inmates.  That problem would have to be addressed within the context of who is allowed to engage in other pursuits like D&D and who shouldn't be.

QuoteThe inmates don't have impulse control: to brush against is to go to war.  I can only imagine it's worse, or different but just as bad, now.  And please understand, despite my conservatism I'm not suggesting that these guys one and all are animals lock them up and throw away the key!  On the contrary, I'd wager probably half of inmates or more go in as perfectly normal people and must become sociopaths because of the institutional environment.  The fellow I discussed earlier was institutionalized at twelve, and even in the Juvenile facilities ("gladiator academy" he called it), they had just as severe problems.  He learned it on the way up.  The reform of the system from within must start.  BUT...

And despite my liberalism, I have no illusions that all of the inmates are equally salvageable.  Some of them are truly just broken, usually due to mental illness.  The major crisis, from what I can see, is putting non-violent offenders in with the general population.  Of course they end up violent on the way out; what choice do they have?

Quote...D&D is not the way.  It cannot be the way.  Power dynamic, power dynamic, power dynamic.  It's already there.

I won't say it doesn't happen, but I don't hear a whole lot of stories about 'iron fisted DMs' except as an aberration.

QuoteLet white collar, 9 month tennis prison you got caught stealing identities play D&D.  There is something way more fundamental that has to be reformed within the penal system in this country before we can consider frivolities like "hey can Bubba McCarjacker be the ranger". Letting inmates play D&D, that's item number 931 on the list of things to do to "fix" prisons.  Right now the chief hurdle is convincing the powers that be that something needs to be done at all and that there even IS a list.  Get these guys to respect each other outside of prison power dynamics BEFORE you say "you can pretend kill him for slights".

None of this is terribly unreasonable.

QuoteMost of them?  No.  I don't.  And it largely isn't their fault, it's the fault of the institutional arrangement they're in.  I have a cousin who was faced with a "choice" while in the county lockup for a couple of months to become a punk, a bitch or do something about the situation that would elevate him to Felon and ... well he'd probably be in prison now.

Exactly.  As you state, it is vitally important that people start looking at prison reform, decide once and for all why we are locking these people up, and deal with them accordingly.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;436000D&D creates a power dynamic.

Very true.

I have no problem with any violent entertainment being denied prisoners. No football, no weightlifting, no competitive sports, no D&D.   They can do yoga, dance and aerobics.  

Of course, I don't mean white collar or minimal security for non-violent offenders.   They can play all the D&D they want.  

Quote from: Koltar;435921That slam was not needed.

Fuck yeah the slam was needed.  

And every slam until Faux Not News is destroyed.