In game solutions do not resolve an out of game issue.

If I have someone that is socially awkward and they are trying to be the social PC of a group, then I am going to be encouraging and supportive. They won't be punished in game for not meeting some subjective standard of social fitness.

I'm always inclined to give a bonus for exceptional play though, but I'm not going to punish those who are less able to provide that sort of thing. It smacks of elitism to me and I'll have no part of it.

Funny thing. Courtesans will be an almost totally social based game and yet our target audience is very much the socially inept.

Quote from: Seanchai;435831But apparently the thief player and magic user and fighter player get a pass in that regard as far as your concerned. They don't have to demonstrate that they are dexterous, willful, or physically robust.

Each of those players can use an unrelated capacity - whether that's their own intellect, descriptive ability, or facility and understand of mechanics - as an in-game substitute. In those cases, a more abstract description will suffice.

For example, not only can an out of shape gentleman who can't lift a sword much less actually direct it with any force or accuracy play a fighter, but he doesn't have to stand up, get out his practice sword, and demonstrate how he's fending off blows and landing those of his own.

But that's apparently reversed 180 degrees when we get to someone who wanted to play a diplomatic, verbal character. They get actively punished if the character's forte isn't in their own wheelhouse.

It's ridiculous and ridiculously punitive.

Seanchai

Quote from: Benoist;435841It's a nonsensical idea. Role playing games are games you play with your mind. In the case of a fighter, what matters is your tactical smarts, your ability to use your own positioning, your allies, order your men-at-arms around, think outside the box, your ability to describe what your character does and how he does it, etc.

Dude. If you don't want to use your imagination and role play your character, you shouldn't play a role playing game in the first place. You should play some CoD, some Descent or Magic the Gathering instead.

Interesting points here...

Ben.
Regarding the 1st. underlined comment above.
I make gestures in every game I play and have stood up to demonstrate movements etc. as have others I have played with. Some games mention gestures and postures as being good RP technique so this is not allways the case.

Would you grant a bonus if someone did these things even poorly?
What about facial expressions?
What about props like jewelry,clothing,pipes,weapons etc.?

2nd comment above. Does the description have to be the actual words or just the content and how they are delivered pertinant?

Someone could describe a killer idea for a speech covering all the relevent points and gesturing effectively (communication is primarily posturing/gesturing in some cases) but not do it the first person.

Example:
"I deliver a passionate speech to rouse the spirits of my companions, sighting home and brotherhood to unite them. As the dawn breaks I kneel and invoke Heklas aid..."(dice are thrown)

maybe I make a few faces and gestures while doing so, no real content but the idea is conveyed. I invoked emotions (home and comrades) and religion (Hekla) with timing (dawn) for effect.
How would you view (mod.) this?
Would that view change if I (player) had a stutter but my PC had a high Chr.?

Sometimes people play a PC because they like the idea and the mechanics of how they accomplish things. Some folk play a "class" that is missing in a group or are interested for other reasons.

What if a "Bard" relies on music for effect...should the player have to actualy bust out a tuba or whatever to get a bonus? How would you decide if they deliver a good tune asides from the att./skill and dice?
What if they brought a tape of someone elses playing?

One guy in the "Encounters" group I play in has a speech challenge but has great ideas and knows the game...should his character be punished for his challenge?
Maybe he plays a verbose PC with good skills so he can be an effective communicator (at least in his mind, which you reference in the post above).
via a well rolled d. while getting great mods. because he thought in character about how to get those mods!

This is an interesting thread eveyone! I have seen this sort of thing bandied about over the years...player ability/character ability and how they interact.
neat stuff

Quote from: PaladinCA;435917In game solutions do not resolve an out of game issue.

If I have someone that is socially awkward and they are trying to be the social PC of a group, then I am going to be encouraging and supportive. They won't be punished in game for not meeting some subjective standard of social fitness.

I'm always inclined to give a bonus for exceptional play though, but I'm not going to punish those who are less able to provide that sort of thing. It smacks of elitism to me and I'll have no part of it.

good points IMO
can you clarify "exceptional play"? ie. delivery,plan or both?

Quote from: skofflox;435927Ben.
Regarding the 1st. underlined comment above.
I make gestures in every game I play and have stood up to demonstrate movements etc. as have others I have played with. Some games mention gestures and postures as being good RP technique so this is not allways the case.

You're still role playing in your mind, though. What I meant by this is that role playing games are games of our imagination. We see, based on what's being described verbally at the table, or what we're looking at at the game table, whether it's a map, or gestures from other players, accents, etc.. we see what's happening in the game world using our mind's eye, as if we were there. That's what I meant by saying "this is a game played with your mind."

Quote from: skofflox;435927Would you grant a bonus if someone did these things even poorly?
What about facial expressions?
What about props like jewelry,clothing,pipes,weapons etc.?

I think these things are generally their own rewards. By which I mean that say, facial expressions, actually mimicking your character's traits as you speak, will affect group dynamics and create a dynamic that will be enjoyable in itself (assuming people are willing, of course). People will pick up on each others' cues, and that'll create a style of its own for the game table. And that's really enjoyable.

I remember a game of Vampire where all my friends basically showed up dressed as their characters. That was totally awesome. I don't remember giving out specific XPs for that, but it was a one shot so I'm not sure what happened afterwards. If you ask them about the experience, that was an awesome game for everyone involved, though, that's for sure.

Quote from: skofflox;4359272nd comment above. Does the description have to be the actual words or just the content and how they are delivered pertinant?

I would guess both. You can feel when someone's into the game or not. Nobody's asking anyone to be Al Pacino or Baudelaire when role playing or describing your actions. At the same time, anyone's able to actually play the game, and you know... be into it. You can see that. I'm much more likely to play the game with people who are into it than play it with people who seem bored and just bitch: "the rules on page XX say that this and this and say that I have a right to it. Give me my modifier already!"

Quote from: skofflox;435927Someone could describe a killer idea for a speech covering all the relevent points and gesturing effectively (communication is primarily posturing/gesturing in some cases) but not do it the first person.

Example:
"I deliver a passionate speech to rouse the spirits of my companions, sighting home and brotherhood to unite them. As the dawn breaks I kneel and invoke Heklas aid..."(dice are thrown)

I would stop you right at the "I deliver a speech" and would tell you: "No. Do it. Speak. What do you tell them?" It's a role playing game. You're not an author composing a story. You're your character right now. Play him.

Quote from: skofflox;435927maybe I make a few faces and gestures while doing so, no real content but the idea is conveyed. I invoked emotions (home and comrades) and religion (Hekla) with timing (dawn) for effect.
How would you view (mod.) this?
Would that view change if I (player) had a stutter but my PC had a high Chr.?

Well first, you're not in control of the environment. I am, as GM. You're in control of what your character says and does. Play your character. That said, if I feel you're into it, you're role playing your guy, you're passionate about it, that is totally the sort of detail I might add to your role playing by describing what's going on around you when appropriate. And that sort of passion is enough for me. I don't give a fuck whether you're a stutterer or whatnot. If you play your character, you're into it, I will feel it. Others will feel it. And yes, you'll get a bonus for that.

Quote from: skofflox;435927Sometimes people play a PC because they like the idea and the mechanics of how they accomplish things. Some folk play a "class" that is missing in a group or are interested for other reasons.

What if a "Bard" relies on music for effect...should the player have to actualy bust out a tuba or whatever to get a bonus? How would you decide if they deliver a good tune asides from the att./skill and dice?

I would never require that kind of thing, but IF the player wants to sing his songs himself, or even better, brings a fucking lute to the game, then by god, that'd be awesome. Would I reward this? Yes. You don't have to, but if you make the extra effort for it, I'm going to reward it. If it makes the game better for everyone involved, I'm going to encourage it.

I've actually seen this. A guy was playing a Werewolf in a huge 50+ players multi-table WoD game once and he actually brought his Scottish bagpipes. He was the skald for the pack, and when the werewolves went to war against the Vampires in town, the whole group moved from one table to the next, all growling and menacing and all, with the guy in tartan playing the bagpipes for real. That was AMAZING. Totally awesome.

Quote from: skofflox;435927One guy in the "Encounters" group I play in has a speech challenge but has great ideas and knows the game...should his character be punished for his challenge?
Maybe he plays a verbose PC with good skills so he can be an effective communicator (at least in his mind, which you reference in the post above).
via a well rolled d. while getting great mods. because he thought in character about how to get those mods!

I would let him play a character like this and not penalize him for a speech impediment. At the same time, I would encourage him to talk, interact with others. If the other players are human beings, they'll let him play too and not hold it against him. If they do, that'll be very bad form, grounds for me to kick their ass out of the group, actually. I would let this player grow into his RP. I would actually make him role play the character rather than roll the dice, in any case. I would want him to feel welcome in pushing onward, forward. That's for sure. What matters is that you're into it, see? From there, the passion works its magic. That's all there is to it.

And therein lies the major difference, in my opinion. Some of us think that it's okay if people just suck at what they do. They are assumed to not be able to do any better, ever, and thus, they somehow should be cattered to. Others like me think that nothing's impossible to anyone, and that people who want to participate in this game actively should be welcome to do so. One is the fatalist, pessimistic, mediocre-is-enough attitude, and the other is the you-can-always-do-better attitude. I still can do better. I still learn everything I can from what works and what doesn't work when I run the game and play my characters. I think everyone's capable of this. The question is whether you are willing to do it, or not. If you're not willing to do it, you should not be surprised if your game sucks in the end.

Quote from: skofflox;435928good points IMO
can you clarify "exceptional play"? ie. delivery,plan or both?

Thanks.

What I mean by exceptional...

When someone says or does something during the game and other people at the table go "Oh wow", "Ah", or "Yeah!" In other words, you know it when you see or hear it. When someone hams it up and leaves the table wanting more. That's pretty exceptional right there. A player that does that deserves to get a mechanical bonus for their effort, if there even need be a mechanical aspect to it at all (that's another debate).

.

Quote from: Benoist;435941I think these things are generally their own rewards. By which I mean that say, facial expressions, actually mimicking your character's traits as you speak, will affect group dynamics and create a dynamic that will be enjoyable in itself (assuming people are willing, of course). People will pick up on each others' cues, and that'll create a style of its own for the game table. And that's really enjoyable

.

I concur (as I intimated in a past post)...could this not be extended to social skill delivery as well? A good speech is it's own reward in that it brings enjoyment,greater depth of character and RP skill/technique to the table thereby raising the game to a higher lvl., so to speak.
So why give a mechanical/xp bonus (or whatever) in any situation involving delivery?

QuoteI would stop you right at the "I deliver a speech" and would tell you: "No. Do it. Speak. What do you tell them?" It's a role playing game. You're not an author composing a story. You're your character right now. Play him.

My example was assuming the player did/would -not- play in first person for whatever reason...some players never go that route. I do not exclude them from my games as they may come around at some point or enjoy and contribute to the game in other ways. You may be more picky in this regard!

Given that, would you give a bonus for the example delivery of speech?

(As an aside,I would hope that by others playing 1st person the shy would be inspired to as well. I would not stop the game and draw attention to their style.)

QuoteWell first, you're not in control of the environment. I am, as GM. You're in control of what your character says and does.

absolutely...this question presumes "trad. play".
Surely I could time my speech for the dawn and just confirm that it's clear out, if you did not allready say so, before delivering! That was my assumption in framing the question.

Thanks for taking the time to answer! Great stuff to ponder...

Quote from: skofflox;435966.

I concur (as I intimated in a past post)...could this not be extended to social skill delivery as well? A good speech is it's own reward in that it brings enjoyment,greater depth of character and RP skill/technique to the table thereby raising the game to a higher lvl., so to speak.
So why give a mechanical/xp bonus (or whatever) in any situation involving delivery?

Because I'm role playing as well, and the mechanics are just a tool to help the game unfold, not a substitute to it. If you want to convince an NPC of something, then by all means, try to be convincing when you role play your character, and I'll react accordingly, modifying the probabilities to your roll, if any, accordingly.

Quote from: skofflox;435966My example was assuming the player did/would -not- play in first person for whatever reason...some players never go that route. I do not exclude them from my games as they may come around at some point or enjoy and contribute to the game in other ways. You may be more picky in this regard!

Given that, would you give a bonus for the example delivery of speech?

(As an aside,I would hope that by others playing 1st person the shy would be inspired to as well. I would not stop the game and draw attention to their style.)

I'm more picky about that. I would insist on the player using first person and actually role playing the situation as if he were the character. I would just ask him or her to act it out. That doesn't mean I would be harsh about it, but I'd rather encourage the player to do it. Repeatedly, if necessary. I'd expect the player to get my point after a while, that this is about role playing your character, not writing a story.

Quote from: skofflox;435966absolutely...this question presumes "trad. play".
Surely I could time my speech for the dawn and just confirm that it's clear out, if you did not allready say so, before delivering! That was my assumption in framing the question.

That is totally possible. What you could do for instance is talk to me GM apart, and explain to me what you want to do with your speech, that you're timing it so that the dawn helps the delivery and such. Then we come back to the game table, you deliver your speech and role play your character, and I'll participate by describing the sky at this opportune moment(s). That sort of thinking is totally welcome.

Quote from: Tommy Brownell;435752But you will let a guy, say, use Charisma as a dump stat and get away with being persuasive in game because he happens to be a good orator? ('m assuming that would be the case, since you said that the guy giving the big speech would then get big bonuses to their roll)...for me (using D&D terms) having a Charisma of 8 or 10 and trying to get by on your natural charisma and/or oratory skills is at least as much of a roleplaying "sin" as playing a guy with a Charisma of 18 and relying on your die rolls to bear that concept out.

If you have a low charisma, it will still affect your capacity in terms of reactions or persuasion rolls.  The example for this would be Claudius from the "I, Claudius" miniseries.  The guy is a brilliant guy, but has very bad charisma; once in a while, though, he pulls of moving someone because of his oratory capacity and generally good nature.

Also, two characters with CHA 8 are not necessarily going to have the same situation vis a vis how other react to them.  The guy who's CHA 8 and works hard at being likeable anyways is going to have an easier time of it overall than the guy who has CHA 8 and acts like a social retard.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Benoist;435971I'm more picky about that. I would insist on the player using first person and actually role playing the situation as if he were the character. I would just ask him or her to act it out. That doesn't mean I would be harsh about it, but I'd rather encourage the player to do it. Repeatedly, if necessary. I'd expect the player to get my point after a while, that this is about role playing your character, not writing a story.

Not that I think it's impossible to play third person and not being your character, by the way. But playing face-to-face in first person is a mean towards an end, rather than the end itself. Differences come in the form of a play-by-posts game for instance, where one would switch back and forth between first and third person - I know I do that, for instance. And there, it's impossible to actually say your speech out loud, unless you do so in your mind as you write it, which I do sometimes when I play in PbP. Even in PbP you can usually feel people who are in the game and those who aren't, with all the grey areas that implies as well.

But yeah. I'm talking about first person role playing as a mean to an end, here, not an end itself.

Quote from: RPGPundit;435978If you have a low charisma, it will still affect your capacity in terms of reactions or persuasion rolls.  The example for this would be Claudius from the "I, Claudius" miniseries.  The guy is a brilliant guy, but has very bad charisma; once in a while, though, he pulls of moving someone because of his oratory capacity and generally good nature.

Also, two characters with CHA 8 are not necessarily going to have the same situation vis a vis how other react to them.  The guy who's CHA 8 and works hard at being likeable anyways is going to have an easier time of it overall than the guy who has CHA 8 and acts like a social retard.

RPGPundit

Totally, on both counts.

Quote from: Seanchai;435831It's ridiculous and ridiculously punitive.

Seanchai

And DIRECTLY RELATED to what we are there to do: Roleplay. Swinging a sword is not directly related, only indirectly; talking in your character's voice is.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Peregrin;435854...earns more points than some paragraph long gobbly-gook with fancy words.  

Someone who spoke out a paragraph-long speech of gobbledygook and fancy words would probably be a prime example of a socially inept player.  The point isn't who can be the biggest loudmouth, or use the most sophisticated vocabulary; its who can actually understand how to act in a given situation and how to understand what the NPCs around you are expecting or wanting or demanding.
And if you have that social competency, you can often get more done without giving a one-sentence speech than someone who Just Doesn't Get It could with 12 pages.  

This happened in one of my games too; the player characters were confronting a "Big Bad Guy", who was basically holding the whole galaxy hostage and is pretty much too powerful to defeat in combat.  Player A, let's call him, is a guy who has put huge amounts of points into Diplomacy and a big-time charisma guy.  But he fails to understand the fundamental motivations and interest of Big Bad guy, because he really doesn't care.  So he rolls, gets like a 40, and I tell him he still fails; because all he did was threaten the Big Bad and offer him nothing that he wanted, and therefore didn't really use diplomacy at all.

Now, had he actually been capable of understanding what the Big Bad guy wanted (and it was no surprise, several of my other players got it right away), he could have easily gotten what he wanted, by convincing the Big Bad guy that he'd be getting what he wanted too.  No great speechmaking skill would have been required on the player's part, but the ability to communicate what the social situation actually demanded, which was: A) don't make empty threats at the being of Cosmic Power and B) Try to understand what the being of cosmic power actually wants to see if you can offer him a nicer scenario than the one he's currently running with.

So taking into account how players make SOCIAL DECISIONS is just as valid as taking into account how they make tactical decisions.  Had a "fighter" player in that situation told me that he was charging the Big Bad naked despite knowing that said big bad could disintegrate him with a glance, I would not have had the guy do a "warrior" roll to see if he would somehow succeed, or ignore the fact that said warrior had just made a massively boneheaded mistake. If he's tactically retarded, in an RPG, he pays for it.
So if you're socially retarded, why shouldn't you pay for it just as much?

RPGPundit

In that context, you should.

I don't see why it's a such a big deal to some people when you put it that way.  Mechanics shouldn't circumvent decision making on the player's part.

Quote from: Peregrin;435990In that context, you should.

I don't see why it's a such a big deal to some people when you put it that way.  Mechanics shouldn't circumvent decision making on the player's part.

No, they should actually enable them to make better decisions and aid in the interplay, not the opposite.