And go fuck yourself. Or do you forget how many Northerners were more than happy to lynch blacks?
And amazingly enough, your points 1 and 2 are the same ones I am making. Guess you took the short bus to school.

Quote from: Blackhand;425742I would also like to know who fought the war if it weren't the abolitionists (including freed slaves).

anti-abolitionists
recently arrived immigrants, fresh off the boat

Blackhand's right, though. The one major underlying reason for secession that precipitated the Civil War was turning around the subject of slavery, sometimes explicitly, and sometimes implicitly. Which doesn't mean this was the only reason, but it was the one major issue that triggered and fueled the whole conflict, let's not be morons about it.

I'm sorry, you keep saying there are other reasons, but no one has listed an example that isn't (as Benoist said) explicitly or implicitly tied to the subject of slavery.

It was the ONE THING that caused the civil war, simply by being prevalent.

Without this issue, the states would NOT have went to war with one another.

Oh yeah, and the snarky bit about anti-abolitionists and immigrants is true, and I should have been more loquacious with my initial response, but I was referring to the notion that abolitionists didn't do much to fight in the war.

Quote from: danbuter;425745And go fuck yourself. Or do you forget how many Northerners were more than happy to lynch blacks?
And amazingly enough, your points 1 and 2 are the same ones I am making. Guess you took the short bus to school.

I'm sorry, I'm unclear what your exact points I have listed are you saying is analogous to your argument? I have stated all my points are directly related to the issue of slavery and I can give more detailed explanations of any point I have brought up.

I have not forgotten some folks living up north were straight up nigger haters, but overwhelmingly the northern states were abolitionists.

Or did you forget, as you have so blithely insinuated is my issue?

yeah, I know. I should have resisted the lure of the imp of the perverse.

Now imagine an alternate future in which the Confederacy endured, twenty/thirty years after the war. Does anyone seriously think that the Confederacy would have abandoned slavery without a major blacklash/reason to do so in the first place?

I don't know how that's explained in Deadlands, but if the only reason to do so was for the sake of the readership, it sounds kinda lame, to be honest. Like gamers aren't adult enough to deal with alternate history in believable terms, you know.

Quote from: Benoist;425755Now imagine an alternate future in which the Confederacy endured, twenty/thirty years after the war. Does anyone seriously think that the Confederacy would have abandoned slavery without a major blacklash/reason to do so in the first place?

I don't know how that's explained in Deadlands, but if the only reason to do so was for the sake of the readership, it sounds kinda lame, to be honest. Like gamers aren't adult enough to deal with alternate history in believable terms, you know.

They would absolutely have NOT abandoned it, and it would probably have extended to immigrants, Native Americans and criminals such as the abolitionists (just after the war).

In the wake of a victorious Confederacy, it's not hard to imagine slavery as a punishment for a variety of criminal infractions.  It might have been this instead of a burgeoning prison system.

All I can say is I'm tired of game products that basically assume that I, the reader, am a moron, or an immature individual unable to deal with a boob on a page, two guys kissing, or this or that fictitious/alternate nation, or empire, or Confederacy, or whatnot, that would be a slaver state. I mean come on. Seriously?

To me, a role playing game product should be clear, explain what needs to be explained, and basically strive to make players and GM rise to the plate, instead of dumbing things down and avoiding subjects because they're "dirty." So you can both trust your readers to be intelligent beings, and at the same time be explicit about the aims of your game product, provide advice and guidelines on how to use it best, and so on, so forth.

It's all fine and good to avoid really sick stuff for the sake of it, but the same way, mature themes and ideas shouldn't be avoided just because "the readership wouldn't be able to handle it." That's bullshit, to me.

I like my gaming material sanitised. When I pick up a roleplaying game I just looking ofr cheap escapist thrills. I'm not making a statement, not trying to be edgy or examine serious issues. Sure, occasionally stuff happens that might make you think but that just incidental and not to be encouraged.

I find that when you place a serious, potentially sensitive issue right next to shooting zombies that latter kind of has the effect of trivialising the former.  And even if shouldn't bother me (and I am pretty squeamish by nature) there is always the risk it might bother someone else that table, and it's just not worth it.

I'm definitely in the 'it all centered on the issue of slavery' camp... I'd waffled in the past but after watching a 'debate' between a bunch of historians several years ago I became convinced.

When I first started playing Deadlands I was a bit confused... then annoyed. I knew very little about the setting's timeline... I'd ask about the war, the Confederacy, slaves... and I'd get these hand-wavy responses... 'tut, tut, let's not worry about all that and just have fun' type of shit.
I'm still not very happy about it but seeing as just about all our gaming has been centered in California it hasn't come up much. There's very little ethnic content of any sort actually... though I think it bothers them sometimes that one of my characters is overtly racist towards Mexicans (regardless of our hardly ever meeting any).
 
To my way of thinking part of playing in a historical setting (even something as vaguely historical as Deadlands) is exploring the bad stuff that went with the times as well as the interesting/fun aspects... trying to get a hint of a world-view that is alien to my modern way of thinking, including the nasty racist/classist/sexist stuff... but I get that a lot of folks would rather just ignore all that.

A lot of 'good' fantasy/horror/scifi stories/movies/etc. have used that step away from reality to comment on real-world issues... doesn't mean you have to get preachy about it, but ignoring relevant issues for the sake of 'fun' seems willfully ignorant.

Quote from: danbuter;425745And go fuck yourself. Or do you forget how many Northerners were more than happy to lynch blacks?

Well I'm not sure about blacks but Lincoln wrote lynching Italians was a good idea at one point.

Though I don't generally like Exalted or its setting, Manacle and Coin is an excellent supp that deals with the economic impacts of slavery on ancient economies. Not only that, but it makes the topic interesting for gaming by showing how it can be used to generate problems and challenges for PCs to deal with.

Deadlands is the single most insulting RPG setting to black people that has ever seen actual print.

And for the whole, 'it was a state's rights issue' crowd: One of the 'state rights' they wanted to preserve was the right to buy and sell human beings like livestock. The CSA were barbaric traitors. And glorifying them in the Deadlands setting is equally barbaric. This is a game. Keep your blatant racism out of it. At least in the ReichStar setting the Nazis were the bad guys. I Deadlands the CSA is just another faction. Go team slavery!

Quote from: Pseudoephedrine;425768Though I don't generally like Exalted or its setting, Manacle and Coin is an excellent supp that deals with the economic impacts of slavery on ancient economies. Not only that, but it makes the topic interesting for gaming by showing how it can be used to generate problems and challenges for PCs to deal with.

Thank you. Exactly the sort of stuff I'm talking about. If it's relevant to the game, and creates conflicts/challenges/events for the PCs to deal with, or going on in the world, then I don't see why a publisher would shy away from a subject like slavery beyond the "readers are morons and will not understand" or "I'm so afraid of BADD I'm just going to avoid it."

Quote from: Benoist;425774Thank you. Exactly the sort of stuff I'm talking about. If it's relevant to the game, and creates conflicts/challenges/events for the PCs to deal with, or going on in the world, then I don't see why one would shy away from a subject like slavery.

Including slavery isn't the issue. Handwaving it away as some minor detail is though. Deadlands says, 'Hey Black Folks, it's all good, the CSA wasn't that bad!' It's an insult to millions of people.