Quote from: Bobloblah;412501Not sure where you think I said Essentials wasn't a WoTC product...?

Seanchai isn't actually having a conversation with you, he is having a conversation with what the little voice in his head claims you are saying.

Quote from: PaladinCA;412716When WotC has issues with the character builder, which aren't allowing them to make 4e and 4e Essentials able to use the same database, then something has been fundamentally changed to make this a difficult integration of the rule sets.

Where did they say that was the cause of the delay?

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;412733Where did they say that was the cause of the delay?

Seanchai

Official WotC announcement in September....

"Unfortunately, we will not have a data update ready for the D&D Insider tools in September. The process of integrating the new changes from Dark Sun and Essentials is taking a bit longer than we expected, and we plan to update the Character Builder in early October. We will continue to keep you informed of any changes to the schedule, and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause."

As of today, they still haven't been able to integrate the Essentials with regular 4e, nor have they added the changes in Dark Sun.

If this is not a capitulation then there never has been one.

Quote from: PaladinCA;412737"Unfortunately, we will not have a data update ready for the D&D Insider tools in September. The process of integrating the new changes from Dark Sun and Essentials is taking a bit longer than we expected, and we plan to update the Character Builder in early October. We will continue to keep you informed of any changes to the schedule, and apologize for any inconvenience this may cause."

So they didn't actually say what you said they did ("...which aren't allowing them to make 4e and 4e Essentials able to use the same database."). I figured that was the case.

Seanchai

*scratches head*

Yes, not the exact same words in the exact same order.

Quote from: Seanchai;412752So they didn't actually say what you said they did ("...which aren't allowing them to make 4e and 4e Essentials able to use the same database."). I figured that was the case.

Seanchai

Man, you're obtuse at times.

If it hasn't been an issue making Essentials work with the regular database then why is it still an issue well over a month later? Seriously? What part of their original statement didn't you understand?

Edit: That was basically what I was getting at in my prior post. If they are continuing to have difficulties integrating Essentials and Regular, then there must be some serious differences in the way things work out from a character building standpoint.

None of which proves or disproves whether Essentials can be considered 4.5 or not. But it does seem to open the door towards at least discussing the possibility.

Wonder if they have new plans for the character builder, such as making it web only.

Quote from: PaladinCA;412778If they are continuing to have difficulties integrating Essentials and Regular, then there must be some serious differences in the way things work out from a character building standpoint.

That's a non sequitur as far as I'm concerned. Mind you, I don't own Essentials stuff, but I seem to recall that WotC divided new material in Essentials into two categories - stuff (feats, items, ...) that any PC using 4.Core classes can draw on, and stuff that's exclusive for PCs using (certain or any) Essentials builds.

So the effort to integrate the Essentials material could be less that that the two use distinct rules, it's rather that there seems to be a huge effort to code the restrictions on what class can use what content into the software.

While I'm aware that Essentials introducing stuff that's flatly non-accessible to PCs using 4.Core builds is grist to your mill, that's not my own gloss - I simply think WotC wanted to introduce the idea of "Exclusive content! 11! - come kids, play Essentials builds!". Even if everything enters the DDI database, you'd still have to choose playing an Essentials build to fully utilize all the new shiny.

Quote from: PaladinCA;412778If it hasn't been an issue making Essentials work with the regular database then why is it still an issue well over a month later?

Beyond what Windjammer mentioned, did you read their follow up posts, the bit about changing over to a web-based application and the decision to delay adding content until they could get that up and running?

But, that aside, to what do you attribute the delay in adding Dark Sun material? It can't be incompatibility...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;412796But, that aside, to what do you attribute the delay in adding Dark Sun material? It can't be incompatibility...

Incompetent contract computer programmers?  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Seanchai;412796Beyond what Windjammer mentioned, did you read their follow up posts, the bit about changing over to a web-based application and the decision to delay adding content until they could get that up and running?

But, that aside, to what do you attribute the delay in adding Dark Sun material? It can't be incompatibility...

Seanchai

I honestly think that WotC is doing that web-based application to cover their own difficulties with the updates. The timing on that announcement was certainly dubious to say the least.

"Gee, guys, we can't get the Dark Sun stuff in (who knows why) and Essentials isn't working with the character builder database. We've tried figuring out a way to fix this for the past month and are having all kinds of issues. Let's announce that we are delaying Essentials due to a switch to a web-based database system as that will give us more time. We didn't "have time" to put in the Dark Sun stuff before "the switch" so that will cover us there.

As to why they weren't able to get Dark Sun to work? Could it be themes? Other than themes, I can't see why they are having issues with Dark Sun.

But I maintain that Essentials is just different enough from regular 4e to be causing them fits. And thus my point of this entire argument is to say, "Why are they having these issues REALLY?" Why so much trouble? I'm not buying that the trouble stems from, "We are changing to a web-based design." Because that happened after all of the trouble came up with integrating Essentials into the CB. It was a little too convenient to have that issue pop up when it did.

I really do hope that WotC gets on the ball and gets all of this worked out. Despite my own mixed opinion about 4e, I thought the character builder was pretty cool stuff and certainly made creating and managing a character much easier than the old fashioned way. Tools are nice to have for any RPG. Why they are choosing to do a web-based app is beyond me. In my experience, most web-based apps I've worked with have been crap. I'd much rather have the CB remain as is (updated of course).

While we may not know the exact cause of the delay, the difficulty with integration of Essentials certainly seems to be a major factor. I'm not drinking their Kool Aid and attributing the entire delay to a change in platforms. It just doesn't wash.

We'll just have to see how it pans out.

Quote from: Windjammer;412790That's a non sequitur as far as I'm concerned. Mind you, I don't own Essentials stuff, but I seem to recall that WotC divided new material in Essentials into two categories - stuff (feats, items, ...) that any PC using 4.Core classes can draw on, and stuff that's exclusive for PCs using (certain or any) Essentials builds.

So the effort to integrate the Essentials material could be less that that the two use distinct rules, it's rather that there seems to be a huge effort to code the restrictions on what class can use what content into the software.

While I'm aware that Essentials introducing stuff that's flatly non-accessible to PCs using 4.Core builds is grist to your mill, that's not my own gloss - I simply think WotC wanted to introduce the idea of "Exclusive content! 11! - come kids, play Essentials builds!". Even if everything enters the DDI database, you'd still have to choose playing an Essentials build to fully utilize all the new shiny.

It is not grist to my mill. It makes no difference to me whether someone plays core 4e or Essentials 4e. That the two are not playing well with each other in the CB as it is, seems to indicate that there are enough differences in the way that both build characters as to make them somewhat incompatible with each other. Certainly the distinction is a fine line, but it is enough of a difference to raise the question of whether or not Essentials is basically a revised or altered edition from the way things were done before.

You are free to disagree. But even if you do, will Essentials classes be able to work with core classes without any issues even without the character builder? Has this been answered yet? Probably not.

We do know, however, that having them work in the same database is proving to be difficult. If they end up having a selection to let people build Essentials classes or Core Classes, that might be a workable solution, but could it also mean that we are in fact playing two different versions of the game rules when it comes to character building. And if so, does that mean we have a 4.0 to 4.5 situation? There is certainly room for debate.

Quote from: ggroy;412800Incompetent contract computer programmers?  :rolleyes:

WotC has plenty of those on retainer. Given their history, it is amazing that Character Builder has worked as well as it has up to this point.

I still find it hard to believe that Dark Sun could have been such a major issue for them.

I also find it hard to believe that Essentials was so different from Core 4e that it caused them issues in their programming of the Character Builder updates.

Thus, I question Essentials compatibility with the Core and ask, "Could this difficulty stem from more than just software issues? Is it a little deeper than that?" I don't think we have a full picture yet.

Quote from: PaladinCA;412802I honestly think that WotC is doing that web-based application to cover their own difficulties with the updates.

So it isn't that WotC said integrating mechanics was troublesome, it's that you don't believe what WotC attributed the delay to and so came up with your own explanation. And then told a bunch of people that WotC said something they didn't.

Quote from: PaladinCA;412802Could it be themes? Other than themes, I can't see why they are having issues with Dark Sun.

As they work like Paragon paths, I don't see how that could be.

Quote from: PaladinCA;412802While we may not know the exact cause of the delay...

You claimed up thread you did. And we certainly know why Wotc said there's a delay.

Seanchai