Quote from: Seanchai;412363That's right! People are buying 4e books to throw at cats. That WotC is outselling Pathfinder - particularly when you look at DDI - doesn't matter because the people who purchase their products don't use them in hobby-related ways...


Seanchai

No snark intended- you've referenced DDI a couple times; are there some public figures regarding that subscription total?  I've never seen any.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;412367No snark intended- you've referenced DDI a couple times; are there some public figures regarding that subscription total?  I've never seen any.

Nope. I guessed that if there were 1 million WotC customers, a safe, conservative guess for the number of DDI users would be 100,000.

I wish there were such figures available because I'd bet they're higher than 100,000...

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;412363That's right! People are buying 4e books to throw at cats. That WotC is outselling Pathfinder - particularly when you look at DDI - doesn't matter because the people who purchase their products don't use them in hobby-related ways...

Seanchai

How many people have purchased WotC books recently who then turned around and got rid of them once they found that the books were not worth their money? It is one thing to purchase a product and another to keep that same product.

Quote from: jeff37923;412390How many people have purchased WotC books recently who then turned around and got rid of them once they found that the books were not worth their money? It is one thing to purchase a product and another to keep that same product.

Me for one.

I just purged most of my 4e books. I still have a PHB 1 and 2 because I play in a campaign that might pick back up.

I've never been inspired enough to run 4e. So why keep the other books?

I know I regret the last 5 or so 4e books I bought...have no idea what I'm going to do with these things, can't imagine they'll have the resale value my 3.5 stuff did.

My old Heinsoo 4E books have been collecting dust on the book shelf for over nine months.

My 4E Essentials books have gotten very little use so far.  In my 4E Encounters game (which uses 4E Essentials this season), our characters are still at level 1.

I've tried to trade or sell my 4E books several times now, as I haven't played 4E in ages, and like never will again.  They have very little value in the seconday market, and now, with Essentials, I'm betting that's going to go to near zero.

Quote from: PaladinCA;412417Me for one.

I'm sure there are more, too.

Of course, folks buy and then sell Pathfinder products as well. They buy them just to read and not to run or use.

But, really, how many folks are buying 4e books right now and then turning around and selling them? I'm sure there were quite a few when 4e was released and I'm sure there are some now, but the latter aren't remotely numerous to account for the difference in sales between Pathfinder and 4e, not two years after the game's initial release.  

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;412472I'm sure there are more, too.

Of course, folks buy and then sell Pathfinder products as well. They buy them just to read and not to run or use.

But, really, how many folks are buying 4e books right now and then turning around and selling them? I'm sure there were quite a few when 4e was released and I'm sure there are some now, but the latter aren't remotely numerous to account for the difference in sales between Pathfinder and 4e, not two years after the game's initial release.  

Seanchai

You're probably right about that, but how many people are actually buying the 4E books right now, as opposed to Essentials?  How many people will buy Essentials and dump older 4E books?

Quote from: Bobloblah;412477You're probably right about that, but how many people are actually buying the 4E books right now, as opposed to Essentials?  How many people will buy Essentials and dump older 4E books?

I don't follow your logic as to why anyone would dump the prior 4e handbooks; Essentials hasn't invalidated the builds in those.

Quote from: Angry_Douchebag;412478I don't follow your logic as to why anyone would dump the prior 4e handbooks; Essentials hasn't invalidated the builds in those.

Not trying to imply that everyone is going to rush out and do this, but some people are weird about "editions," immediately dumping the old when the new comes out.  There's also the fact that the rules compendium adds pages and pages of errata, thereby superseding earlier books.  I can see that being a reason for it, too.

There are also people already talking about running games that are Essentials only.  If one goes that route, what does one need the earlier books for?

Hey, I fully admit that I might be totally wrong about more than a handful of people doing this.  I haven't bought any Essentials stuff, myself, and I haven't played 4E in more than a year now.  But I have seen something similar happen during previous turnovers (for lack of a better word) from one set of books to another.

Quote from: Bobloblah;412477You're probably right about that, but how many people are actually buying the 4E books right now, as opposed to Essentials?  How many people will buy Essentials and dump older 4E books?

Uh...Essentials is 4e. Moreover, it's a WotC product.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;412495Uh...Essentials is 4e. Moreover, it's a WotC product.

Seanchai

Not sure where you think I said Essentials wasn't a WoTC product...?

As for Essentials being 4E, I don't know it well enough to judge for myself. I do know that not everyone currently playing 4E/Essentials agrees with your assessment, though.

Quote from: Bobloblah;412501As for Essentials being 4E, I don't know it well enough to judge for myself. I do know that not everyone currently playing 4E/Essentials agrees with your assessment, though.

I can find someone who will tell you that the moon is made of cheese. Said disagreement doesn't mean it is.

As was said in the other thread, Essentials and 4e share the same rules. The difference between them is that you can't trade out powers between different builds (currently). For example, in 4e, Fighters mark by attacking targets. In Essentials, they mark by activating an aura.

You can't (currently) build a 4e Fighter that has that marking aura. There's nothing about the aura which can't currently be found in 4e (aura exist in 4e already), but normally you can choose alternate features between the different builds of the same class. For example, you can build a Battlerager Fighter that has the Great Weapon Fighter's Two-Handed Weapon Talent.

If that makes Essentials an edition unto itself, er, okay. That seems dumb sophistry.

Seanchai

Some people feel that Essentials is a 4.5 and some don't.

When WotC has issues with the character builder, which aren't allowing them to make 4e and 4e Essentials able to use the same database, then something has been fundamentally changed to make this a difficult integration of the rule sets.

They aren't working well and playing well together in the builder. This makes one ponder the question of whether or not this is a 3.0 to 3.5 similarity.

Now whether this actually indicates a 4.5 situation or not is perfectly debatable, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we discard that opinion in the same way that we would discard the "moon is made out of cheese" absurdity.