Quote from: VictorC;408942"This chart of the Top 5 Roleplaying Games (hobby channel) reflects sales in Q3 2010.  The charts are based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers."

It's always been an iffy source but better than most available sources.  You can also look at Amazon sales rankings for rpgs, but it's also mysterious how it's created.  However, Pathfinder seems to be doing almost as well as 4e there as well.

Quote from: Nicephorus;409083It's always been an iffy source but better than most available sources.  You can also look at Amazon sales rankings for rpgs, but it's also mysterious how it's created.  However, Pathfinder seems to be doing almost as well as 4e there as well.

Once again, I'm not discounting the either companys performance.


But, amazon has access to there own sales data, the information from this site appears to come from an internal correspondence. Which means someone from the office gave someone else from the same office a note that had this information.

And apparently, no names, no titles and no real information.

Quote from: Mistwell;409079Lower level play, from 1-10 or so, was awesome under 3e.  I had many years of fun with 3e.

I'd agree, but I'd make it 1-8. I think there was a reason Huma Dragonbane was suppose to be 9th level.

Heh, I'm picturing Habro executives in suits hacking their way through the trollish denziens of WotC's offices, heads of game designers rolling away at every stroke.

It warms the cockles of my heart.  Wow, what a day to realize I still have a heart only to learn it has a terminal case of warm cockles.

On the one hand, this information is pretty dubious. Its almost certain that WoTC doesn't sell most of its product via traditional hobby markets anymoe, and you know, its highly possible even Pathfinder doesn't.  If anything, these stats say a lot  about the irrelevance of the hobby shop as a vehicle these days.

On the other hand, it STILL means that in polled areas, people who came in to buy RPG books still bought as much Pathfinder as they did D&D, and that has to be a scary-as-shit reality for WoTC, even if it isn't a real tie in the bigger scheme of things.

RPGPundit

Quote from: David Johansen;409116Heh, I'm picturing Habro executives in suits hacking their way through the trollish denziens of WotC's offices, heads of game designers rolling away at every stroke.

Well, it is about time for the yearly pre-Christmas layoffs.

Quote from: RPGPundit;409171...and that has to be a scary-as-shit reality for WoTC...

150,000 people x at least $5.95 x 12 months = $10,710,000. And then, of course, there's actual book sales...

Yeah, I'm sure they're all a quiver with fear. They must be beside themselves. Poop stains all over their office chairs. Paizo, Paizo, they cry wretchedly as they tear out their hair.

Seanchai

Quote from: Seanchai;409218150,000 people x at least $5.95 x 12 months = $10,710,000. And then, of course, there's actual book sales...

Yeah, I'm sure they're all a quiver with fear. They must be beside themselves. Poop stains all over their office chairs. Paizo, Paizo, they cry wretchedly as they tear out their hair.

Seanchai

You know, I'm reasonably sure he didn't mean WOTC executives were literally fouling their underclothes.

Lord Hobie

Quote from: Lord Hobie;409220You know, I'm reasonably sure he didn't mean WOTC executives were literally fouling their underclothes.

You never know - Pundy is a persona of extremes...

Seanchai

Yeah, the only "tie" or nearly-so based on this discussion is through the hobby channel (based on little evidence as noted) and Amazon.

As far as I can tell it doesn't count Borders, Barnes & Noble, or (again, as others have noted) the DDI subscription.

It could be indicative of some other trend... say... that there's a correlation between internet/hobby shop sales and wider awareness of the hobby. You don't go into a hobby shop and not see all the other stuff, and you don't go on the internet not knowing what you're looking for. It might further say that there is some correlation between wider awareness and a preference for Pathfinder, which would also not be surprising. Because the longer you've been in the hobby, the more likely you are to be aware of other games, and the more likely you are to have started with 3.5 or earlier, whose fandom has not yet had a chance to dwindle.

That said, Pathfinder's been in Borders and B&N for a while now. But the brand playing second fiddle to D&D has changed even in the time I've been following (since late 3.0), including things like White Wolf product, M&M, and Dark Heresy. And from what I've seen, Borders and B&N carry mostly core of Pathfinder, as opposed to many supplements for 4e. So things can (probably will) change there at some point.

Quote from: beejazz;409259Yeah, the only "tie" or nearly-so based on this discussion is through the hobby channel (based on little evidence as noted) and Amazon.

It doesn't matter, though! Its like if you were to say that Ma Kettle's Burger Shack has tied McDonalds for sales, but only in New York and Miami. While by no means signifying "game over", as some would like it to seem here, it DOES in fact mean McDonald's is facing a serious problem and have clearly fucked up in some big ways to get even to that point.
Likewise WoTC: if Pathfinder really has tied them in the hobby stores, it means that they're having some serious problems.  They can still have overwhelming superiority of sales in the rest of the market and yet be facing serious problems. For starters, that nothing like this would ever have happened back in the 3e glory days.

Because, let's face it: if D&D 4e was a better game and WoTC a better company, there's no way that anyone would get even close to them.  The mere fact of that closeness is a sign that WoTC is doing things wrong.

RPGpundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;409270It doesn't matter, though! Its like if you were to say that Ma Kettle's Burger Shack has tied McDonalds for sales, but only in New York and Miami.

No, it's like Ma Kettle's Burger Shack has tied Village Inn in hamburger sales in New York and Miami. Physical books are only a part of what WotC sells. They also sell D&D Insider subscriptions, which are basically electronic copies of the content available in the physical books.

When Paizo has something similar, making all the content of their books available online for $5.95 a month, let's compare numbers. Then Paizo will see the same drop in sales of physical books and we can compare apples and apples.

Or we could just compare revenue from the sale of their content company-wide, regardless of the format. I wonder who would win...I wonder who would win...(Surely not the people selling assloads of months subscriptions...)

Quote from: RPGPundit;409270The mere fact of that closeness is a sign that WoTC is doing things wrong.

I supposed had they not decided to transition to this kind of business that might be true.

Seanchai

I think all you can really take away from it is that games in stock sell copies at hobby stores.   Also if you look at the top 3 you've got WoTC, Paizo and FFG.  They are currently the biggest mainstream high production value game producing companies right now.   It's not really shocking that the biggest production houses, and the most mainstream game franchises right now are selling the most.

This would probably hold true if you looked at the rpg sales in most markets.  Perhaps the specific order may jimmy around a little but those 4 games are likely going to be in the top 5 most of the time.

To state the obvious, clearly WotC now has a major competitor that sells a product very similar to what they used to sell. Unless the market has grown substantially, or Pathfinder and 4e customers overlap substantially, Paizo is cannibalizing sales from WotC. To have created a new competitor by failing to support  a large part of the customer base, and to consequently have a smaller share of the total "D&D-type game" market can only be considered a major failure.

I suspect most of the sales Paizo has are sales Wizards wasn't going to get. I think it's great they are doing well, especially because I like their magnificent flip maps.

The main thing I can note: D&D3 and 4 together dominate the entirety of everything? What's not to like about that!