I think the art in some of the GW publications of the 80's was pretty professional, and not just the box/cover art. I'm thinking of both Warhammer FRP and more significantly, Elric 3e. But my memory isn't very good on either.

What about WEG (not just Star Wars, but Torg)...? And of course, Jorune and Talislanta.

I think a lot of people who say that X was a major innovator (for a given value of X, and a number of innovations) often were just not aware of much outside of TSR/D&D at the time X appeared. But even suppose we grant that WW's art & layout were innovative, the overall style hasn't been progress AFAIAC. I like books that are physically easy to handle and reference; glossy pages and distracting artwork interwoven or sub-posed beneath the text don't contribute to that. (It's something that really turns me off about D&D 3e+.)

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;402521I think the art in some of the GW publications of the 80's was pretty professional, and not just the box/cover art. I'm thinking of both Warhammer FRP and more significantly, Elric 3e. But my memory isn't very good on either.

What about WEG (not just Star Wars, but Torg)...? And of course, Jorune and Talislanta.

I think a lot of people who say that X was a major innovator (for a given value of X, and a number of innovations) often were just not aware of much outside of TSR/D&D at the time X appeared. But even suppose we grant that WW's art & layout were innovative, the overall style hasn't been progress AFAIAC. I like books that are physically easy to handle and reference; glossy pages and distracting artwork interwoven or sub-posed beneath the text don't contribute to that. (It's something that really turns me off about D&D 3e+.)

TORG was one of the examples I had in mind of a game which mixed good cover art and weak interiors, actually. Shatterzone was even worse though.

I'll grant that Palladium had high quality and consistent art in a lot of their books. Agreed on WFRP too.

On reflection then it's more the design elements of early WW that would have really stood out. Their graphic heavy page design is often (and justifiably) mocked, but it was very different to other games. The understated covers, too, made the games stand out.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;402467...what?

Palladium art was alright.  Art in (some) White Wolf books was outstanding, detailed.  The bets art in Palladium books was stuff yanked from Eastman/Laird comics in TMNT.  It got better, and some of the RIFTS art is good.  But yikes, saying Palladium art is better than WW?  That PROVES how biased you are.  

Jgants is 100% right.  For every "page XX" problem WW has, layout in 99% of Palladium books is downright abominable.

Well I don't share Pundits hate of all things WW but there is no way the best art in Palladium was yanked from Eastman/Laird comics.

Rifts launched with a Keith Parkinson cover and he did several other covers and internal pieces for it. If you think Eastman/Laird was better than Parkinson, well you're nuts . The layout however does leave much to be desired.

The biggest contribution WW made IMO was to production values not art. It seemed the era of big glossy books started with WW and I wouldn't even say that's an entirely good thing.

Art in Vampire is full of "girlie-men" and "mascu-chicks".  I find none of it appealing.

The art style is a little better (which is highly subjective)--but the subject and content of Vampire artwork... well ... sucks.

WW is still no villain in spite of Pundy having a big stick up his butt about them.

Some people played it, but in my experience D&D has always been the high lord and master of RPGs in spite of even the best (Moldvay/Cook-Mentzer-Cyclopedia Basic) version being a C- game if not lower.

And most people won't play any other goddamned thing EVER.

So accusing White Wolf of doing harm to the hobby in that way is kind of bugfuck STUPID because D&D has done it and probably always will.

And as others have mentioned Magic the Gathering was FAR more brutal on taking people out of RPGs and removing gamespace as the players filled up and hogged tables.

Course if you look deeper, getting any RPG going even the only one most people play is a bitch anyhow so a pickup casual game like Magic with its tourney support and ways of getting people to continually buy new product with limited retailer risk were destined to take space away anyhow.

Finding people willing to play Call of Cthulhu has proven nearly impossible for me, forget about any sort of long campaign.

Showing up with a couple decks of Magic and a 40K army are far more likely to get me some sort of game even if schedules don't allow for consistent week to week play.

I think this took a LOT of potential RPG players out of the hobby entirely.  Hell, I am close to just giving up on them.  Can't find anyone willing to play anything other than in print D&D and the only non D&D games I have found are weekend only games I am not getting 3 hours of sleep to go to then going back to work for.  (Especially not White Wolf LARPs where apparently everyone's character motivation is "Dickhead".  I was passive aggressively mocked for playing a "White Hat".  Apparently I am one of the few gamers who wants to play a hero...)

Really the 2 biggest villains in RPGs are REALITIES OF TIME AND SCHEDULING, and the playerbase being a bunch of Asperger's sufferers.

Even shitheads like Outlaw Press and Loren Coleman and the fat hambeast who killed TSR can't do what we gamers do ourselves...

Quote from: Vellorian;402608Art in Vampire is full of "girlie-men" and "mascu-chicks".  I find none of it appealing.

The art style is a little better (which is highly subjective)--but the subject and content of Vampire artwork... well ... sucks.

Good thing WW doesn't begin and end with Vampire.  And mascu-chicks?  I can think of three pictures off the top of my head, that were hardly masculine chicks.

It's all subjective.  Most of Palladium's art I know was crappy, at least the non-TMNT stuff.  RIFTS had some really good stuff.

White Wolf's stuff is way more detailed, and I feel more evocative.  Just flipped through my Vampire revised Core, Cam and Sabbat books, and I see precious few Girlie-men or mascu-chicks.  Nor "black paper with white ink.

But I prefer the art in Werewolf and Wraith anyway.

Mascu-chicks? Come on. The art of VtM was outstanding.

Oh, and for RPG artstyle?

2e Black Box Ravenloft era.  Fabian artwork and similar creepy pictures, and just damned good looking while still being easy to read and look at.  So goddamned lovely.

That stuff evoked a mood and feel for the Demiplane of Dread.

It might have still been AD&D 2e middle fantasy except with more scary monster types and some O Henry type Darklords and their situations, but the look and feel of those books set the style and you could immediately "get" what the setting was about.

Which is probably why everything since then in that setting has felt flat and improper.  The artstyle and look changed and it goes to being D&D cept with Vampires and zombies instead of 100s of foul fetid fat fucking Orcs existing entirely within the public domain. *

Man, the 3.5 Ravenloft module can eat a fat willy.

* With loving respect to HoL here!

Quote from: Captain Rufus;4026342e Black Box Ravenloft era.  Fabian artwork and similar creepy pictures, and just damned good looking while still being easy to read and look at.  So goddamned lovely.

Oh yes. the AD&D2 Ravenloft boxed set. Awesome stuff.

There's some cool stuff in 3e's White Wolf Ravenloft, but few and far between.

2ed Ravenloft art was, indeed, the shit.

Toss Dark Sun and Planescape's art on that fire too, because they were great too.

Quote from: Hackmastergeneral;4026442ed Ravenloft art was, indeed, the shit.

Toss Dark Sun and Planescape's art on that fire too, because they were great too.

Yeah. Planescape especially, to me (though I'd still prefer Ravenloft's). It was totally awesome.

If the planescape art was all (or mostly) DiTerlizzi then I agree. I never had any of that stuff but I saw a book or two in a used book store not long ago and it was all I could to do to stop myself picking it up just for the pictures.

I'll note that some of Bard Games' Arcanum/Atlantis trilogy (published 1984-86) was illustrated by Bill Sienkiewicz and although I'm not a huge fan of his, it's definitely quality, even in B&W.

Quote from: Captain Rufus;4026342e Black Box Ravenloft era.  Fabian artwork and similar creepy pictures, and just damned good looking while still being easy to read and look at.  So goddamned lovely.

Yeah, it's hard to find RPG art more evocative and atmospheric than Stephen Fabian's work on Ravenloft. I still have that Tarokka deck he did, which is pretty damned cool divested of its context.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;402654If the planescape art was all (or mostly) DiTerlizzi then I agree. I never had any of that stuff but I saw a book or two in a used book store not long ago and it was all I could to do to stop myself picking it up just for the pictures.

I'll note that some of Bard Games' Arcanum/Atlantis trilogy (published 1984-86) was illustrated by Bill Sienkiewicz and although I'm not a huge fan of his, it's definitely quality, even in B&W.

Yeah, Planescape was mostly DiTerlizzi. TSR in that period seemed to be using a lead artist on certain of the lines and it definitely helped set the mood. So you had Brom on Dark Sun, DiTerlizzi on Planescape, and first Fabian and then Ruppel on Ravenloft.

I assume other lines had lead artists too but those are the ones I remember off hand.

Whether or not WW truly was innovative at the time isn't important. What's important is that a lot of people thought so.