Quote from: RPGPundit;401580Have you considered Forward... to Adventure!?

RPGPundit

What's the system like?

It's a nice coincidence that this thread showed up - this morning I was just about to start a thread asking a similar question. I thought I'd ask here for suggestions for a Fantasy RPG to use next time around, for the sake of trying out something new.

What I'm looking for: I'd like to run a pretty straightforward dungeon-based game in the sense of, say Castle Greyhawk - exploring the main dungeon over time. I'd like a system that basically maximizes the number of rooms the party could hope to explore in a given session, and minimizes the amount of homework I have to do between games - i.e. NPC/Monster stats, math in general.
   
   I don't want a complex or rules-heavy system. Particularly, I want to avoid any given fight taking a long time, or a calculation to apply the effects of common actions. I think complexity is sort of in the eye of the beholder, so this is what I'm thinking in terms of games I'm familiar with:

"About right," comparable to : Basic-Expert D&D/Labyrinth Lord; Tunnels & Trolls; Dragon Warriors

Maybe too complicated, maybe not:
   - Runequest (Monsters have a lot of numerical detail, combat can get complex, spells can require a lot of figures)
   - Savage Worlds (The book encourages miniatures, creation/advancement involves a lot of "buying")
   - Warhammer (I may be misjudging it; I've only played a little. From reading the book it comes off as vaguely fussy.)
   

Probably too complicated:
   - Burning Wheel (Many things to track, very elaborate character creation)
   - D&D 4th Edition (Nearly requires miniatures, fights are lengthy)
   - MERP/RM (Lots of skills, lots of charts)

Definitely too complicated:
   - AD&D/OSRIC as written (Many picky subsystems, baroque elements of combat per RAW)
   - d20/D&D 3rd Edition (many derived stats, advancement heavy on "buying," fights VERY lengthy after a few levels)
   - GURPS, Hero (simliar issues to d20, if not more so)

Too "Lite" would be, say, Risus or FUDGE.

Miscellaenous things I do want :

   - Magic that is based on specific "spells" rather than abstract effects.
   
   - Items and resources are at least somewhat important.
   
   - Characters can gain experience/advance by doing things one does in a dungeon full of treasure and monsters (as opposed to story award, roleplaying award, tagging aspects, etc.)
   

Miscellaneous things I don't want:

   - If the system has a really strong focus on how the character relates to society, that's not so great, since it's drawing focus off of exploration.

   - Anything reminiscent of this tagline from the game Donjon : "Wondering what's on the other side of that door? Bash it down – with enough successes, you'll tell the GM what's there." While I think this is a cool idea on its own terms,    but it's not what I'm trying to do - I want to have the characters discovering a fairly objective environment.

   - If combat is so dangerous that extended ventures into a dungeon full of wandering mosnters would quickly become an exercise in futility.


This is a pretty narrow set of parameters, I admit, but, then I do already know three games that would work; I'd just like to try something new and since as the thread's proven, there are at least 101 possibilities out there, it would be cool to hear from people with experience in some of these games suggest what might work, and why!

Thanks, guys.

Quote from: Cole;401596What I'm looking for: I'd like to run a pretty straightforward dungeon-based game in the sense of, say Castle Greyhawk - exploring the main dungeon over time. I'd like a system that basically maximizes the number of rooms the party could hope to explore in a given session, and minimizes the amount of homework I have to do between games - i.e. NPC/Monster stats, math in general.
   
   I don't want a complex or rules-heavy system. Particularly, I want to avoid any given fight taking a long time, or a calculation to apply the effects of common actions. I think complexity is sort of in the eye of the beholder, so this is what I'm thinking in terms of games I'm familiar with:

You might want to take a look at my Microlite74 or the almost finished Microlite75. M74 is an attempt to remake 0e in very lite D20 terms. M75 is what I ran as 0e was transitioning to 1e in the late 70s. Unless you are specifically looking for 0e, M75 is probably more what you are looking for. Both games do dungeon crawls fine and allow you to add in rules you like from just about any edition easily (well, probably not 4e -- at least not easily).

Both are rules lite and very fast to play. Combats in my current M75 campaign -- with 9 players -- last 10 to 20 minutes each. With 4 or 5 players, it'd be 5 to 10 minutes for most combats.

Both are free.

Swords and Wizardry, the clone for OD&D.

Here are my first thoughts.

Not 4e, but d20:  3e D&D or Pathfinder
Fantasy, but not d20: Stormbringer*/Runequest/Basic Roleplaying*, Lejendary Adventure*
TSR-era D&D: AD&D*/OSRIC, OD&D*/Swords & Wizardry
Others: Rolemaster, Palladium Fantasy RPG, Tunnels & Trolls*

Popular alternatives that didn't click with me, but you still might consider: GURPS, Savage Worlds

Another option would be d20/3e with a setting sourcebook that makes it feel different than the default D&D game with a more "generic fantasy" setting:
Midnight
Black Company*
Testament
Eternal Rome
Thieves World*
Hamunaptra
Trojan War
Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia*

* - these would be my picks

Quote from: RandallS;401611You might want to take a look at my Microlite74 or the almost finished Microlite75. M74 is an attempt to remake 0e in very lite D20 terms. M75 is what I ran as 0e was transitioning to 1e in the late 70s. Unless you are specifically looking for 0e, M75 is probably more what you are looking for. Both games do dungeon crawls fine and allow you to add in rules you like from just about any edition easily (well, probably not 4e -- at least not easily).

Both are rules lite and very fast to play. Combats in my current M75 campaign -- with 9 players -- last 10 to 20 minutes each. With 4 or 5 players, it'd be 5 to 10 minutes for most combats.

Both are free.

Neither are quite what I'm looking for since they seem more essentially streamlined variants of D&D itself rather than different but comparable games, but I did want to take a moment to say that from a casual read through, M74/M75 both seem elegantly done and I could see using either at some other time.

Quote from: Cylonophile;401546Well, some of the things joe said was that he does not the way 4e seems to be becoming a miniatures tabletop game and the rules seem to be written to push people towards miniatures and maps.
He also doesn't like the way the classes got redone, with every class now self healing and multi classing removed.

Not being into d20 or D2D I don't understand the last bit, I can understand not wanting to play a game that's going like GW and trying to sell overpriced miniatures.

The complaint of "multi classing removed" sounds like that the player is a 3rd Edition D&D veteran. 3E had an idiosyncratic way of mixing sets of abilities  - characters still had classes and levels, but the level benefits were modular , so each time you earned a level you could pick "a level of Fighter" or "A level of Rogue," etc. Older versions of D&D don't have the same thing they are much stricter about your character class.

If his complaint is fundamentally "3rd Edition was great and now it's gone and they fucked 4e all up" then you just want Pathfinder: basically the same game as D&D 3e, but you can go into Barnes and Noble and buy it.

If your man just wants less strictly defined character types than 4e, many popular games offer that. Savage worlds might fly since it's more structured than the all-out buy by points model of a GURPS or a HERO system, and, since you mentioned settings it offers some choices of packaged settings you can buy, with a couple of fantasy options. SW does push miniatures and maps somewhat but not as much as even d20 D&D.

I like Noisms' point of "why not just try an outright different game." The worst that can happen is you don't love the game and maybe sell a used rulebook. I am not familiar with the Mongoose version of it, but in its previous versions, Runequest is a great game, as is Elric/Stormbringer, its close relative. The big difference between them is the way magic works. In either game you're still likely to be an unrooted adventurer fighting dudes for gold and glory - either would give you a "Conan" flavor under the conditions of "Conan might well die in a fight."

Pendragon is one of the best games of all time but know that by the book, you are a Knight in King Arthur's England and that's that.

D20...meh...
Cy.
why not try MRQ2,Talislanta/Omni system,Ars Magica,MM&M (a bit dated & quirky but simple) or dare I suggest Sorcerer/Sword&Sorcerer?

Cole.
Talislanta/Omni system,Sovereign Stone,MRQ2 or Stormbringer.

Quote from: skofflox;401656D20...meh...
Cy.
why not try MRQ2,Talislanta/Omni system,Ars Magica,MM&M (a bit dated & quirky but simple) or dare I suggest Sorcerer/Sword&Sorcerer?

Cole.
Talislanta/Omni system,Sovereign Stone,MRQ2 or Stormbringer.

What are Sovereign Stone and Talislanta like? (I have a basic idea of the aesthetic style of Talislanta, but not really how gameplay works.)

Quote from: Cole;401668What are Sovereign Stone and Talislanta like? (I have a basic idea of the aesthetic style of Talislanta, but not really how gameplay works.)

Talislanta 4th (the one i'm most familiar) operates under very simple yet flexible rules. There is no character creation per se, instead you pick an archetype from a list of +120. The system is similar to d20, but improved (IMO), with various degrees of success and fail. The magic system is a dream: free-form but with a lot of flavour, combining various schools of magic with a list of "arcane habilities" or modes, etc.
In short, is a game you learn to play in mere minutes but is open to endless possibilities, (yeah, I know, I'm a Talislata Bitch).

Cole, note again that Tal is freely downloadable. Also I'll say again that 3e vs 4e is very much a matter of taste, but 3e is closer to D&D in that you have spell lists and characters gain hp per level. The latter may make it more suitable for extended dungeoncrawling.

That said, you really should check out Legends of the Ancient World, or if you can get your hands on it, The Fantasy Trip/Dragons of Underearth. (DoU is the simplified version of TFT; LotAW is the retroclone.) It's got the complexity you want, and beginning characters are more robust than in classic D&D. It does use a map for combat, but it's not fiddly, and if you wish you can probably do away with the map once you as GM understand how the system works.

Quote from: Cole;401648I am not familiar with the Mongoose version of it, but in its previous versions, Runequest is a great game, as is Elric/Stormbringer, its close relative. The big difference between them is the way magic works. In either game you're still likely to be an unrooted adventurer fighting dudes for gold and glory - either would give you a "Conan" flavor under the conditions of "Conan might well die in a fight."

I have yet to try it, but MRQII (the current Mongoose version of RuneQuest) is one of the best games of the BRP family.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen;401691Cole, note again that Tal is freely downloadable. Also I'll say again that 3e vs 4e is very much a matter of taste, but 3e is closer to D&D in that you have spell lists and characters gain hp per level. The latter may make it more suitable for extended dungeoncrawling.

That said, you really should check out Legends of the Ancient World, or if you can get your hands on it, The Fantasy Trip/Dragons of Underearth. (DoU is the simplified version of TFT; LotAW is the retroclone.) It's got the complexity you want, and beginning characters are more robust than in classic D&D. It does use a map for combat, but it's not fiddly, and if you wish you can probably do away with the map once you as GM understand how the system works.

Elliott, thanks -I'll check these out - both games I've heard of but never really had an opportunity to look at. This is the good side of the .pdf world, isn't it? I'm DLing the "rules sampler," 4th and 3rd edition rule books for Tal (apparently there's now a 5th.) I'm going to start off with reading the Rules Sampler this afternoon.

In the meantime, do you have a one-or-two sentence explanation on the differences in magic between 2/3/4? I mentioned "discrete spell lists" both because I think it's a huge convenience, and because I also think it's good to have a concrete framework for "these are the kinds of things 'Wizards' are known to do."

Even somebody who has never even been in a playground fight can conceptualize pretty well what a warrior can do - "Punch someone, swing a sword at it, punch someone, shoot arrows at it." I think with lists of spells you can broaden them if you want, where with freeform rules it can be a confusing field of "well, most anything...not everything, but, you have to get to know the guidelines of..."

Quote from: Cole;401648I like Noisms' point of "why not just try an outright different game." The worst that can happen is you don't love the game and maybe sell a used rulebook. I am not familiar with the Mongoose version of it, but in its previous versions, Runequest is a great game, as is Elric/Stormbringer, its close relative. The big difference between them is the way magic works. In either game you're still likely to be an unrooted adventurer fighting dudes for gold and glory - either would give you a "Conan" flavor under the conditions of "Conan might well die in a fight."

Of course, there's always the possibility that the guy actually loves the core principle of D&D, that is, being an adventurer exploring dungeons and wilderness, with a tactical challenge different from the ones 4E proposes through his gestion of the grid, movement, sliding, shifting etc.

In that case, there are still other, different games than D&D mockups that could fit the bill for him, but the criteria become a lot more precise, with a lot of games not suited for this particular type of dungeon-exploration game play. One that *does* IMO fit the bill is Mongoose's RuneQuest II. See Using RuneQuest for actual Dungeoneering for more information on this.

Quote from: Cole;401596It's a nice coincidence that this thread showed up - this morning I was just about to start a thread asking a similar question. I thought I'd ask here for suggestions for a Fantasy RPG to use next time around, for the sake of trying out something new.

What I'm looking for: I'd like to run a pretty straightforward dungeon-based game in the sense of, say Castle Greyhawk - exploring the main dungeon over time. I'd like a system that basically maximizes the number of rooms the party could hope to explore in a given session, and minimizes the amount of homework I have to do between games - i.e. NPC/Monster stats, math in general.
   
   I don't want a complex or rules-heavy system. Particularly, I want to avoid any given fight taking a long time, or a calculation to apply the effects of common actions. I think complexity is sort of in the eye of the beholder, so this is what I'm thinking in terms of games I'm familiar with:

"About right," comparable to : Basic-Expert D&D/Labyrinth Lord; Tunnels & Trolls; Dragon Warriors

Maybe too complicated, maybe not:
   - Runequest (Monsters have a lot of numerical detail, combat can get complex, spells can require a lot of figures)
   - Savage Worlds (The book encourages miniatures, creation/advancement involves a lot of "buying")
   - Warhammer (I may be misjudging it; I've only played a little. From reading the book it comes off as vaguely fussy.)
   

Probably too complicated:
   - Burning Wheel (Many things to track, very elaborate character creation)
   - D&D 4th Edition (Nearly requires miniatures, fights are lengthy)
   - MERP/RM (Lots of skills, lots of charts)

Definitely too complicated:
   - AD&D/OSRIC as written (Many picky subsystems, baroque elements of combat per RAW)
   - d20/D&D 3rd Edition (many derived stats, advancement heavy on "buying," fights VERY lengthy after a few levels)
   - GURPS, Hero (simliar issues to d20, if not more so)

Too "Lite" would be, say, Risus or FUDGE.

Miscellaenous things I do want :

   - Magic that is based on specific "spells" rather than abstract effects.
   
   - Items and resources are at least somewhat important.
   
   - Characters can gain experience/advance by doing things one does in a dungeon full of treasure and monsters (as opposed to story award, roleplaying award, tagging aspects, etc.)
   

Miscellaneous things I don't want:

   - If the system has a really strong focus on how the character relates to society, that's not so great, since it's drawing focus off of exploration.

   - Anything reminiscent of this tagline from the game Donjon : "Wondering what's on the other side of that door? Bash it down – with enough successes, you'll tell the GM what's there." While I think this is a cool idea on its own terms,    but it's not what I'm trying to do - I want to have the characters discovering a fairly objective environment.

   - If combat is so dangerous that extended ventures into a dungeon full of wandering mosnters would quickly become an exercise in futility.


This is a pretty narrow set of parameters, I admit, but, then I do already know three games that would work; I'd just like to try something new and since as the thread's proven, there are at least 101 possibilities out there, it would be cool to hear from people with experience in some of these games suggest what might work, and why!

Thanks, guys.

Cole, no problem with your parameters, they're very clear!

Forward to Adventure fulfills all your requirements, and so does Dungeonslayers (this one is free, check it out!). I'd like to recommend Savage Worlds, but it doesn't fulfill one requirement (you get XP for "good roleplaying").

I don't recommend RuneQuest nor Warhammer for what you want (they're good games, but not for this), since they both emphasize how your character relates to society. And you can forget about the "too complicated" games if you think Savage Worlds is maybe too complicated for you.

I hope this helped.